What regiment does this soldier come from?

[knittinganddeath]

Could anyone figure out which regiment the soldier on the left (with the knitting) comes from? Thanks for any help :-)

Also, is it possible to (roughly) date this photo? It's from the IWM where it has the vague title "Medical Services on the Home Front, 1914-1918."

Photo from IWM: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205287226

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

Could anyone figure out which regiment the soldier on the left (with the knitting) comes from? Thanks for any help :-)

Also, is it possible to (roughly) date this photo? It's from the IWM where it has the vague title "Medical Services on the Home Front, 1914-1918."

Photo from IWM: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205287226

The same as the man next to him - Bedfordshire Regiment.  The other fellow is Norfolk Regiment, so they are probably from an East Anglian Brigade.  Date wise I would say 1916 as the men in the Bedfords have 1905, stiffened type prewar caps, but the Norfolk man, a Corporal, is I think wearing a 1916, soft trench cap.  The central man is also wearing an emergency pattern jacket (no pleats on chest pockets) issued between late autumn 1914 and late summer 1915.  I’m positive about the jacket, but less so about the cap, as I’m only looking on an iPhone screen.  Nevertheless, I think early 1916, or late 1915 is likely to be accurate. The Corporal is an older soldier with a single medal ribbon for prewar service.

NB.  I don’t see anything at all to suggest that they are medical services.  If stretcher bearers I would expect to see arm bands and if wounded they would be in hospital blue uniform.  Perhaps an assumption has been made because of the knitting, as this (and needlework) was encouraged as therapy in British military hospitals and had been since the Crimean war of 1853-1856.

Edited 3 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[knittinganddeath]

Thank you @FROGSMILE I wonder where he learned to knit, since in my opinion he's working on something rather more complicated than the "scarf" the IWM has labeled it.

Edited 3 January , 2022 by knittinganddeath

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

Thank you @FROGSMILE I wonder where he learned to knit, since in my opinion he's working on something rather more complicated than the "scarf" the IWM has labeled it.

Often from older sisters, as well as mothers, I should think.  In peacetime regular soldiers had often learned in hospitals (every battalion had a small one in addition to larger garrison facilities), but he looks too young for that to be the case in this instance.  So many needles does suggest something more complex I agree. 

Edited 3 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[brianmorris547]

4 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

Thank you @FROGSMILE I wonder where he learned to knit, since in my opinion he's working on something rather more complicated than the "scarf" the IWM has labeled it.

Looks like a balaclava to me

Brian

[knittinganddeath]

Just now, brianmorris547 said:

Looks like a balaclava to me

Brian

That's what I thought too, but am confused by what appears to be cabling (braids) on it. Very non-standard and uses more yarn! On the other hand, it will be a lot warmer...but the patterning will also harbour more "insect life" (as one pattern writer tactfully put it).

[tootrock]

Knittingandeath,

Could you put up an enlargement of the piece of knitting - my wife might be able to offer some suggestions as to what it might be.

Martin

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

That's what I thought too, but am confused by what appears to be cabling (braids) on it. Very non-standard and uses more yarn! On the other hand, it will be a lot warmer...but the patterning will also harbour more "insect life" (as one pattern writer tactfully put it).

It's a good point, the strongest knitting traditions came from the Scottish and Irish Isles (Shetlands, Fairisles, and Arran etc.) and the fishing towns of the North of England, all of which shared a very strong Nordic heritage passed down from generation to generation and not always by females.  Many Islander men could knit.  I imagine that we're seeing something like that here, although I've no idea why he should be a Bedfordshire regiment soldier.  One shouldn't read too much into that and from 1916 on especially men went to whatever regiment they were sent to, regardless of their origins.  There's an interesting article on balaclavas here: https://www.worldwarknits.com/wwi-caps-and-balaclavas.html

Edited 3 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[knittinganddeath]

12 minutes ago, tootrock said:

Knittingandeath,

Could you put up an enlargement of the piece of knitting - my wife might be able to offer some suggestions as to what it might be.

Martin

Here you go...unfortunately the resolution isn't the best.

I can't figure out if the dark bit in the middle is an opening in the garment or the ball of his yarn.

Also, does your wife have any idea why are there needles on the bottom and the top?

 

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There's an interesting article on balaclavas here

If he is indeed knitting a balaclava, then it might be something like "Helmet C" which looks like an unshaped tube with an opening. This would allow the knitter to add cables without making it difficult to shape. Can guarantee you that "Helmet A" fits much better, though! (I made that style for my kids when they were little.)

Re: the East Anglia connection, Norfolk has a tradition of fisher ganseys though prewar photos don't show many with cables.

 

Edited 3 January , 2022 by knittinganddeath

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

Here you go...unfortunately the resolution isn't the best.

I can't figure out if the dark bit in the middle is an opening in the garment or the ball of his yarn.

Also, does your wife have any idea why are there needles on the bottom and the top?

 

If he is indeed knitting a balaclava, then it might be something like "Helmet C" which looks like an unshaped tube with an opening. This would allow the knitter to add cables without making it difficult to shape. Can guarantee you that "Helmet A" fits much better, though! (I made that style for my kids when they were little.)

 

 

Yes I've only worn the A-Type too, when a child (Winter 1963 was bitter).  To my great delight I received a parcel (as we all did) in the First Gulf War in 1990-91, with an A-Type balaclava in sand coloured wool knitted by an old lady veteran of WW2.  I still have it somewhere and plan to give it to a military museum.

NB.  The most common type issued to British soldiers during WW1 was made from felted wool from a manufactory in, Balmoral, Scotland, where they had generations of experience (and military contracts) involving felted wool headgear.  They usually had a little peak above the aperture.

Edited 3 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenE]

2 hours ago, knittinganddeath said:

Thank you @FROGSMILE I wonder where he learned to knit, since in my opinion he's working on something rather more complicated than the "scarf" the IWM has labeled it.

A photograph titled  The Knitting Circle (1907-1908),

part of a collection The Northamptonshire Regiment in The Punjab (1907-1908)

Maureen

[knittinganddeath]

26 minutes ago, MaureenE said:

part of a collection The Northamptonshire Regiment in The Punjab (1907-1908)

Thank you! I am very impressed by their skills. The guy in the middle actually seems to be knitting something similar as the man in my first post. It has cables in any case. And the dog and its mittens is too cute.

On the knitting forum, the general consensus is that the man in the original post is knitting a balaclava -- much the same conclusion as we reached here.

 

Quote

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

To my great delight I received a parcel (as we all did) in the First Gulf War in 1990-91, with an A-Type balaclava in sand coloured wool knitted by an old lady veteran of WW2.

Was the desert actually cold enough at night to wear it?!

Edited 3 January , 2022 by knittinganddeath

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

Thank you! I am very impressed by their skills. The guy in the middle actually seems to be knitting something similar as the man in my first post. It has cables in any case. And the dog and its mittens is too cute.

On the knitting forum, the general consensus is that the man in the original post is knitting a balaclava -- much the same conclusion as we reached here.

 

Was the desert actually cold enough at night to wear it?!

Yes, but only for part of the year and we’d already concluded matters with a bit of ‘shock and awe‘ before that time was reached…

Edited 3 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

13 hours ago, MaureenE said:

A photograph titled  The Knitting Circle (1907-1908),

part of a collection The Northamptonshire Regiment in The Punjab (1907-1908)

Maureen

Don't you just love these old photos with a hidden bonus clue.  Could the "Pte C.W. Green" named in the central Embroidery Frame be 7220 LCpl-Sgt Cecil Green with Mons Star of the same Regiment?

[Michelle Young]

16 hours ago, knittinganddeath said:

Here you go...unfortunately the resolution isn't the best.

I can't figure out if the dark bit in the middle is an opening in the garment or the ball of his yarn.

Also, does your wife have any idea why are there needles on the bottom and the top?

 

If he is indeed knitting a balaclava, then it might be something like "Helmet C" which looks like an unshaped tube with an opening. This would allow the knitter to add cables without making it difficult to shape. Can guarantee you that "Helmet A" fits much better, though! (I made that style for my kids when they were little.)

.

 

My late mother used to knit Arran sweaters, I remember her having needles like in the photo when she was doing the cables. 

[58 Div Mule]

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

My late mother used to knit Arran sweaters, I remember her having needles like in the photo when she was doing the cables. 

I’m no expert on knitting, unlike my mother and grandmother. However, I do have a jumper knitted for me by a lady from the Shetland Isles that is ‘in the round’ i. e. without seams in the main body. I think this involves a number of knitting needles? 
 

Guernsey jumpers were knitted and issued I believe, @FROGSMILE will know. This gave rise to concerns that too many local fishermen were knitting rather than fishing, although this may be an old (fisher) wife’s  tale…..

58 DM.

[woolly]

18 hours ago, knittinganddeath said:

Thank you @FROGSMILE I wonder where he learned to knit, since in my opinion he's working on something rather more complicated than the "scarf" the IWM has labeled it.

When I was a youngster (early 70s), the lollipop man at my school crossing used to knit clothing and small toys. He told my mum that he learned to knit as a young sailor in the RN during WW2, in order to pass the time at sea (and also as a stress relief) when he was 'off watch'.

[tootrock]

My wife is also of the opinion that the item being knitted is a balaclava.

Pte. C. W. Green, named on the embroidery frame, may be 3/10241 Charles William Green, who first enlisted in 1899. His Service Record is on Ancestry.

Martin

[TullochArd]

11 minutes ago, tootrock said:

Pte. C. W. Green, named on the embroidery frame, may be 3/10241 Charles William Green, who first enlisted in 1899. His Service Record is on Ancestry.

....... that makes sense tootrock

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/01/2022 at 13:14, 58 Div Mule said:

I’m no expert on knitting, unlike my mother and grandmother. However, I do have a jumper knitted for me by a lady from the Shetland Isles that is ‘in the round’ i. e. without seams in the main body. I think this involves a number of knitting needles? 
 

Guernsey jumpers were knitted and issued I believe, @FROGSMILE will know. This gave rise to concerns that too many local fishermen were knitting rather than fishing, although this may be an old (fisher) wife’s  tale…..

58 DM.

Yes that’s correct, the very earliest type of knitted wool over-the-head (aka ‘pullover’) jerseys issued to soldiers that I have been able to research were of Gansey (Guernsey) type with boat necks.  These were hand-framed and made by island families for a long time before machine-made were ever issued. Indeed a great deal of clothing was hand-made, and even when the Royal Army Clothing Depot (RACD) was established at Pimlico, much was still made by local families on piecework rates and apparently many by soldier’s widows and daughters who were favoured for work by the superintendents.  There was even an official arrangement permitting the wives of infantry soldiers to form sewing circles to make grey back shirts and sell them to the battalion quarter-master.  As a reflection of this age old culture, to this day matters appertaining to wives of a battalion is traditionally referred to as the ‘distaff side’ (distaff - a stick or spindle on to which wool or flax is wound for spinning).

As regards the Ganseys they were issued to Submarine Miners of the Royal Engineers (along with pea-coats) and later to the mounted infantry in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.  Subsequently large stocks were purchased by colonial authorities in West Africa and issued to Askaris as a simple and ubiquitous form of hard wearing tunic.  During WW1 they were issued to cavalry in lieu of the cardigans issued to dismounted arms.  There were two colours, navy blue and drab khaki.  One variant with suede shoulder patches was also issued to the Somaliland Camel Corps unit of the King’s African Rifles.

NB.  Surplus stocks of these latter were still present in adventure training clothing pools for use in inclement weather as late as the 1970s.

 

 

 

Edited 31 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE