Which regiment or school cadet force?

[Anne McLintic Smith]

This photo was among my father's posessions - his father was in the Cameron Highlanders and enlisted in Inverness in 1906 but I do not know if he is in the photo or indeed if it is the Cameron Highlanders. My other grandfather was in the Highland Light Infantry. It looks like a school cadet force since there is presumably a headmaster sitting there. Any ideas about which school and the location of the photograph? I was trying to see what the cap badge is but it is very difficult to see - it could be the Scottish Rifles.... Any help welcome. Thank you. 

[FROGSMILE]

Definitely a college cadet force Annie and with a rifle regiment connection which we can see because of the pouch belts worn across the chest by the young sergeants in the front row.  The hose tops appear to have the Douglas sett and the dark plain glengarries also suggest a rifles unit.  I think it’s probably a college associated with a Territorial Force battalion of the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles).  They’re unusual in wearing kilts and probably in Lanarkshire.

Edited 31 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Anne McLintic Smith]

Thank you so much! I was on the wrong track thinking it was my father's father. I now believe it is my mother's father who it turns out was also in the Cameronians, in the Territorial Force - he lived in Glasgow. So I will focus my efforts on getting a location near Glasgow. Thank you again so much!

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, Anne McLintic Smith said:

Thank you so much! I was on the wrong track thinking it was my father's father. I now believe it is my mother's father who it turns out was also in the Cameronians, in the Territorial Force - he lived in Glasgow. So I will focus my efforts on getting a location near Glasgow. Thank you again so much!

A strong possibility is the Kelvinside Academy, Combined Cadet Force CCF (Junior Division), who were originally affiliated to the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles) - see uppermost badge (and badges top left in the group photo) topped with KA.

Your photo is quite rare as an internet search of the Cadets from that pre-WW1 era brings up no hits at all.

 

 

Edited 31 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Anne McLintic Smith]

Gosh, that does sound extremely likely. He lived in Lansdowne Crescent and I always thought he was at Glasgow High or Glasgow Academy but it certainly looks as if he was at Kelvinside Academy. I am pretty sure he [Archibald McNab] is the one to the immediate right [as we look at the photo] of the officer with the swagger stick. I have just been on the war records site and ancestry.com and see his enlistment affidavit for the Territorials dated 13 November 1916 at Yorkhill, Glasgow. It says Archibald Baird McNab of Lansdowne Crescent “2nd Scottish Rifles”.(Q.O.R. Glasgow Yeomanry” is crossed out). Also says he served 4 years in the 9^th Battalion Highland Light Infantry. Primary unit Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). Secondary unit – 2^nd Battalion. He was discharged 13 Dec 1918 due to wounds. He was a great person and I'm glad to know more about him. Thanks for saving me a lot of work looking in the wrong places! All the best, Anne 

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, Anne McLintic Smith said:

Gosh, that does sound extremely likely. He lived in Lansdowne Crescent and I always thought he was at Glasgow High or Glasgow Academy but it certainly looks as if he was at Kelvinside Academy. I am pretty sure he [Archibald McNab] is the one to the immediate right [as we look at the photo] of the officer with the swagger stick. I have just been on the war records site and ancestry.com and see his enlistment affidavit for the Territorials dated 13 November 1916 at Yorkhill, Glasgow. It says Archibald Baird McNab of Lansdowne Crescent “2nd Scottish Rifles”.(Q.O.R. Glasgow Yeomanry” is crossed out). Also says he served 4 years in the 9^th Battalion Highland Light Infantry. Primary unit Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). Secondary unit – 2^nd Battalion. He was discharged 13 Dec 1918 due to wounds. He was a great person and I'm glad to know more about him. Thanks for saving me a lot of work looking in the wrong places! All the best, Anne 

Hello Anne, thank you for your reply.  It seems he served in a number of units over the course of the war, which is not unusual, especially after 1916 when men were sent in a more ruthlessly pragmatic way wherever they were needed.  If wounded and recovered it was not unusual for a war raised soldier to be sent as a reinforcement to a different unit than that which he’d left.  The 9th HLI were a Territorial Force battalion with a secondary title as ‘Glasgow Highlanders’ - styled as such in emulation of the Black Watch - that dated back to their original raising as local rifle volunteers (citizen soldiers defending home and hearth).  Unlike other battalions of the HLI, they wore kilts and bonnets rather than trews and glengarries.  It made them the odd men out, but their difference was of course a source of pride typical of the British ‘regimental system’ that encouraged rivalry and exceptionalism between units.

Of general interest is that the HLI and Cameronian’s were both lowland regiments and a type of fast-marching infantry who had shared a regimental depot in Glasgow since their formation via reform in July 1881.  Another shared feature is that together they were the last regiments of the regular British infantry to wear a peaked, ‘shako’ type of headgear when in their full dress uniform.  The 2nd Scottish Rifles were a regular army battalion and preferred not to use the title Cameronian’s, as that had been the origins of their partner unit, the 1st Battalion, but nonetheless, together they formed the new regiment in 1881, whilst retaining some small, idiosyncratic differences.

The yeomanry you mentioned were also citizen soldiers, but as auxiliary cavalry and with history dating back to before police constabularies, when they had been responsible for maintaining civil order.  During WW1 it was found that cavalry were less required than infantry and many, but not all yeomanry units were dismounted to form extra battalions of infantry whilst retaining their origins with a secondary title. 

NB.  The fellow with the swagger stick is the sergeant major of the cadet corps (inverted stripes on his lower arms) and would have been a recently retired regular soldier.  If your forebear is to the right of him and wearing three stripes with crown above on his upper arm then he is the “cadet colour sergeant” and so the senior ranking cadet in the corps (probably in his final term).

Edited 31 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Anne McLintic Smith]

Thank you so much again for all this wonderful information and for taking the time to research it. I am extremely grateful! I have written to the Rector of Kelvinside Academy to tell him about the photograph and ask if my grandfather attended the school. I will let you know what develops. All best wishes and a happy new year! Anne

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, Anne McLintic Smith said:

Thank you so much again for all this wonderful information and for taking the time to research it. I am extremely grateful! I have written to the Rector of Kelvinside Academy to tell him about the photograph and ask if my grandfather attended the school. I will let you know what develops. All best wishes and a happy new year! Anne

Thank you Anne, I will be very interested to learn the result.  Because these cadet forces at academies became deeply unfashionable for a time, a lot of their history from the period has been lost.

[Anne McLintic Smith]

Thanks - I see Hutcheson's Grammar School had a similar badget - with HGS on the top - so I'm wondering if Glasgow High or Glasgow Academy were also affiliated since family lore says my grandfather attended one of those - I will find out in due course, I'm sure, and let you know! Happy New Year and thanks again, Anne

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Anne McLintic Smith said:

Thanks - I see Hutcheson's Grammar School had a similar badget - with HGS on the top - so I'm wondering if Glasgow High or Glasgow Academy were also affiliated since family lore says my grandfather attended one of those - I will find out in due course, I'm sure, and let you know! Happy New Year and thanks again, Anne

Hello Anne, yes Hutchesons Grammar School CCF is another possibility, as they too had affiliation with the Cameronian’s (SR).  Here is one of their cadets in 1914 (KIA with RSF in 1917), along with a better image of their CCF badge.  I shall look to see if they also wore the dark hued, rifle green uniform, similar to that in your photo, before the war.

Edited 1 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Here are the Hucheson Grammar Cadets in khaki.  If you click on the image it will enlarge.  Notice how unlike your photo they are wearing non-rifles pattern glengarries with diced edging, so although the badge aligns with the Cameronian’s sponsors, the headdress and uniform style does not, e.g. no black buttons.  The fact that they all have cutaway fronts to their jackets and a plentiful supply of bugle arm badges (there’s even a cadet pipe major with pipes arm badge far right centre) suggests to me perhaps a post WW1 photo.

Edited 2 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

I'm sure the building in the original photo is not Glasgow High School.

RM

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

I'm sure the building in the original photo is not Glasgow High School.

RM

Thanks RM, it’s looking increasingly as if Kelvinside might be correct then.

[rolt968]

Can anyone suggest a date for the first photo?

In 1914, Hutcheson's Grammar School was the only Glasgow school whose unit was affiliated to a TF battalion (7 Scottish Rifles). All the other units were companies of the Junior Division of the OTC.. (Westlake) Pre 1908 or so the situation may have been different.

The two very large arches in the original photo are distinctive. The ground floor of the building must have been/ be very high.

RM

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, rolt968 said:

Can anyone suggest a date for the first photo?

In 1914, Hutcheson's Grammar School was the only Glasgow school whose unit was affiliated to a TF battalion (7 Scottish Rifles). All the other units were companies of the Junior Division of the OTC.. (Westlake) Pre 1908 or so the situation may have been different.

The two very large arches in the original photo are distinctive. The ground floor of the building must have been/ be very high.

RM

The only big clue in the first photo is the uniform of the officers in the centre, with sergeant major on one side, and the very substantial presence of kilts and sporrans, which is ostensibly unusual for a unit associated with a rifle regiment.  The very high collars on the officers jackets, their style of uniform, which might also be grey, and the field service caps, when considered in the round implies a date between 1902, and 1908, when the Volunteer Force was stood down and the Territorial Force was raised.  It suggests to me perhaps an association with a volunteer battalion (VB) of the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles).  The kilts seem significant and the sporrans are the same in both photos, white with two black tails.

Edited 2 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Anne McLintic Smith]

I've just sent the photograph to Hutchesons' Grammar School archivist's email asking if they can shed light on it. All very fascinating. Thank you! 

 

[anderston]

The building in the background can't be Kelvinside Academy, as the school dates from the late 1870s, and is Grecian in style.The architecture in the photo looks like a building of 1850ish.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, anderston said:

The building in the background can't be Kelvinside Academy, as the school dates from the late 1870s, and is Grecian in style.The architecture in the photo looks like a building of 1850ish.

The trouble is we don’t know for sure where the photograph was taken, it might have been, e.g. following a church parade, and need not necessarily have been at the school, although at school does still seem the most likely scenario.

Edited 2 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE