Miss fires

[maxwell]

NnHi and happy new year to you all.

I have a  cigarette case that belonged to sapper e.w.Budgen RE given to him by miss fires of 3rd army hospital BEF Xmas 1916.

His number 70540 and he lived in Parkstone near Bournemouth..any info would help 

Many thanks Ian

[Michelle Young]

Any chance of a photo please? 

[Terry_Reeves]

I think he may be Ernest W Budgen. His number suggests the RE Signal Service. The 1939 Register shows him as being born on 6 Jan 1891 and residing at 6 Wills Road, Poole. He was a sorting clerk and telegraph office clerk in civilian life which fits in with the signal service. His wife was Ada and son John E Budgen. Died Poole, April Quarter, 1979.

TR

 

Edited 30 December , 2021 by Terry_Reeves

[maxwell]

59 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Any chance of a photo please? 

[FROGSMILE]

There’s a play on words here indicated by the inverted commas.  The correct spelling for the focal word is MISFIRE.  I suspect that the case was presented to him by another branch of the staff within the 3rd Army Headquarters (abbreviated here HQs), possibly the artillery, for whom misfires were a regular hazard.  A misfire was a projectile that failed to leave the gun and there was a strict protocol for its removal as safely as possible.  After which it was usually destroyed for safety reasons, most commonly by means of an carefully placed explosive charge in a safe area away from danger.  As a member of the RE he might perhaps have been involved in that task on a regular basis, but that is of course just my conjecture (it may just have been recording statistics or communicating them to higher formation).  It is a role that I used to undertake myself for some time and so I have some familiarity with the procedure.

Edited 30 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

Possibly a concert party?  I seems the sort of jokey title they gave themselves perhaps @Kate Wills may know

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Possibly a concert party?  I seems the sort of jokey title they gave themselves perhaps @Kate Wills may know

Yes that’s a really good thought that hadn’t occurred to me Ken and seems entirely likely.

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Possibly a concert party?  I seems the sort of jokey title they gave themselves perhaps @Kate Wills may know

There’s a thread on the subject that lists many of the troupes (with Kate as a main contributor) here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/3663-divisional-concert-parties/

 

Edited 30 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[maxwell]

Thank you people great response as always 

[IPT]

Here's another one (probably SS/12979 John Archibald Pringle, ASC);

https://auctions.rogersjones.co.uk/past-auctions/rogers10333/lot-details/1d05bf0b-ead1-4ac0-b1e1-ad0f00d47d29

 

Edited 30 December , 2021 by IPT

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, IPT said:

Here's another one (probably SS/12979 John Archibald Pringle, ASC);

https://auctions.rogersjones.co.uk/past-auctions/rogers10333/lot-details/1d05bf0b-ead1-4ac0-b1e1-ad0f00d47d29

 

It seems like 3rd Army HQ had its own concert party just as 1st Army did, which latter, “Les Rouge et Noir”, is mentioned in the thread above. I’ve carried out a search on the MISS FIRES and got no hits so perhaps it wasn’t so famous as others.  It’ll be interesting to see if @Kate Willsknows of them.

Edited 30 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[BullerTurner]

“A misfire was a projectile that failed to leave the gun and there was a strict protocol for its removal as safely as possible.  After which it was usually destroyed for safety reasons, most commonly by means of an carefully placed explosive charge in a safe area away from danger.  As amember of the RE he might perhaps have been involved in thattask on a regular basis, but that is of course just my conjecture”

The Royal Regiment has no need of the assistance of THAT Corps, when disposing of a misfire.  Moreover, a misfire is a primer/propellant charge issue.  No explosive needed - burning surplus charges is FUN.  Unlike a “blind” which is a shell that fired but failed to go off.  Those do get blown up but again, no Sapper required!

After seeing that inscription, I like the concert party idea a lot!

[FROGSMILE]

On 31/12/2021 at 14:21, BullerTurner said:

“A misfire was a projectile that failed to leave the gun and there was a strict protocol for its removal as safely as possible.  After which it was usually destroyed for safety reasons, most commonly by means of an carefully placed explosive charge in a safe area away from danger.  As amember of the RE he might perhaps have been involved in thattask on a regular basis, but that is of course just my conjecture”

The Royal Regiment has no need of the assistance of THAT Corps, when disposing of a misfire.  Moreover, a misfire is a primer/propellant charge issue.  No explosive needed - burning surplus charges is FUN.  Unlike a “blind” which is a shell that fired but failed to go off.  Those do get blown up but again, no Sapper required!

After seeing that inscription, I like the concert party idea a lot!

Misfires can also be projectiles (I’ve had to destroy many using an explosive charge, sometimes piled) rather than just propellant charges, which as you say can be simply burned (as they often were/are as a matter of routine).  I agree that the RA require no assistance from RE to do this, but it occurred to me that they might have done if it were a large batch (perhaps faulty, as some famously were).  Conjecture as mentioned.  Like you the concert party theory has grown on me greatly although despite several searches I’ve not yet been able to find a hit using that title.

NB.  I seem to recall that during WW1 a blind (projectile that failed to detonate on impact) was referred to as a “dud”?

Edited 21 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

Mate,

Yes Among my many duties over the years was as a DEMO, whose job was to dispose of malfuntioned ammo.

This included all types of Tank, Artillery and Anti Armour ammo from shells to rockets

My most interesting blows was grenades,all types phos and HE.

But I thought Kate is right, that its a concert party, but why would they give such gifts to the soldiers, which didn't seam correct?

Stay safe and happy New year

S.B

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, stevebecker said:

Mate,

Yes Among my many duties over the years was as a DEMO, whose job was to dispose of malfuntioned ammo.

This included all types of Tank, Artillery and Anti Armour ammo from shells to rockets

My most interesting blows was grenades,all types phos and HE.

But I thought Kate is right, that its a concert party, but why would they give such gifts to the soldiers, which didn't seam correct?

Stay safe and happy New year

S.B

No sign of Kate yet Steve, but I hope she’ll pitch in once she receives the call.

[travers61]

May be they kept going after WW1, as there is this index mention from 1935 (always allowing for the original text being mangled by scanning)

LEICESTER PARTIES

..... Constitutional Club in Asfordbystreet. ! After tea an entertainment was . given by .Miss fires' .concertparty, and all the children were given toys. A New year party for the beginners' ' department of the Charles-street Baptist Sunday ...

Published: Friday 04 January 1935 
Newspaper: Leicester Evening Mail 

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1900-01-01/1949-12-31?basicsearch=miss fires concert party&somesearch=miss fires concert party&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false

 

Travers

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, travers61 said:

May be they kept going after WW1, as there is this index mention from 1935 (always allowing for the original text being mangled by scanning)

LEICESTER PARTIES

..... Constitutional Club in Asfordbystreet. ! After tea an entertainment was . given by .Miss fires' .concertparty, and all the children were given toys. A New year party for the beginners' ' department of the Charles-street Baptist Sunday ...

Published: Friday 04 January 1935 
Newspaper: Leicester Evening Mail 

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1900-01-01/1949-12-31?basicsearch=miss fires concert party&somesearch=miss fires concert party&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false

 

Travers

Brilliant stuff Travers, that’s the first reference I’ve seen and I think it’s crucial evidence that they did exist and that perhaps the name was passed on, maybe via a former member of the WW1 era originals.

Edited 1 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Kate Wills]

The Missfires (spelt with double s) were the concert party of 3rd Army HQ, and seemed to consist of nine performers, and 11 man band under a conductor.

The name itself is a self-depracating one that is often found amongst concert parties, and the spelling could well be a nod to its leading 'lady'.

I have seen other examples of inscribred cigarette cases and hip flask souvenirs from concert parties, and I wonder if it was presented from the performing members of the Missfires stage troupe to the members of the band and / or stage crew. Concert parties usually tried to put on a special show for Christmas, so perhaps it was a souvenir of one such, Certainly, given that two have come to light (nice work IPT) it seems to indicate some special occasion, and not the departure of one member. I wonder how many more were presented.

Does anyone know what was going on at 3rd Army HQ at Christmas 1916 to give us a clue?

The Missfires were still going strong in 1918.

 

Edited 5 January , 2022 by Kate Wills
typos

[Kate Wills]

On 30/12/2021 at 20:44, FROGSMILE said:

It seems like 3rd Army HQ had its own concert party just as 1st Army did, which latter, “Les Rouge et Noir”, is mentioned in the thread above. I’ve carried out a search on the MISS FIRES and got no hits so perhaps it wasn’t so famous as others.  It’ll be interesting to see if @Kate Willsknows of them.

Quite right Frogsmile, they didn't seem to achieve the fame and plaudits of other concert parties.

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Kate Wills said:

Quite right Frogsmile, they didn't seem to achieve the fame and plaudits of other concert parties.

Thank you Kate, it seems to me that as you’ve suggested, Christmas 1916 period must have had some local significance.  The inscribed cigarette cases can’t have been a cheap gift.  It’s an old British cultural (and thus Army) tradition for close-knit elements to pay into an integral subscription with a view to purchasing parting gifts when individual members depart (in a serviceman’s case on posting or completion of colour service).  Perhaps that might be the catalyst behind the cigarette cases.

P.S. Happy New Year, it’s good to see that you are still circulating despite these difficult times. 

Edited 5 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[maxwell]

Again  thank you all  .

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, maxwell said:

Again  thank you all  .

I wonder...

Broadcasting schedule 7 April 1924

Perhaps a "Guest Artiste' in 1916

and again on 26 October 1923 alongside the Post Office Band , seem to be getting warmer!

[maxwell]

That's him.

[BullerTurner]

Looking at that photo, I could as l most hear the fella in the topper singing “I’m Gilbert the Filbert, knut with a k!”.