Unknown WW1 Bayonet

[Joseph Wardell]

Hi Everyone,

I’ve had this bayonet for a couple of years. I was just curious as to what the markings mean, what type of bayonet it was and the country of origin. Any findings are greatly appreciated. Attached are a some photos of the markings and the bayonet next to its sheathe.

[shippingsteel]

It is a British Pattern 1888 Mk.II sword-bayonet made by Enfield in December ('12) of year unclear but most likely 1901. It shows the ER cypher of King Edward on the ricasso. There also appears to be another reissue date which I can't make out. The numbers on the pommel are an inventory number for some system of accounting for these things, however 4 digits without letters is somewhat unusual. 

Cheers, SS 

[Joseph Wardell]

Thank you very much for your reply and that makes a lot of sense now. I will do some more research about it.

[trajan]

Just to add this was designed for the Long Magazine Lee Enfield Mk 1* rifle, and the P.1888 Mk III bayonet, its replacement, was officially introduced in September 1901. This does not affect the 1901 production / issue date of yours, suggested by SS, as the change-over in actual production did not happen overnight!  

The letter 'B' below the number (?07) below a crown on the right ricasso indicates it was made and inspected at Birmingham. 

There might be some markings on the back of the scabbard telling you when that was made. The frog is for the later P.07 bayonet.

Julian

Edited 22 December , 2021 by trajan

[shippingsteel]

Ahh, they didn't just stop making the Mk.II and then change tools and start making the new model Mk.III bayonet. 

Records from RSAF Enfield show that the different Models were apparently made concurrently, and that many of the Mk.III were actually conversions of the earlier types. 

I think you will find the Crown/J7/E inspection mark is an Enfield stamp as the Enfield bayonets were only made at Enfield at that time and NOT at Birmingham.

Cheers, SS 

[trajan]

9 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Ahh, they didn't just stop making the Mk.II and then change tools and start making the new model Mk.III bayonet. 

Records from RSAF Enfield show that the different Models were apparently made concurrently, and that many of the Mk.III were actually conversions of the earlier types. 

I think you will find the Crown/J7/E inspection mark is an Enfield stamp as the Enfield bayonets were only made at Enfield at that time and NOT at Birmingham.

Cheers, SS 

Do, please, stop trying to score points SS.
 

If you had read my post properly you would have observed my comment that "the change-over in actual production did not happen overnight!". Of course it didn't! And after all, the LOC 11151 states specifically: "The sword-bayonet [ Mk III]  only differs from the sword-bayonet 1888, Marks I and II, ... in the tang, pommel. and crosspiece, which are browned, and in the grips, which are fixed with two screws and nuts..." 

I.e., there was no need to 'change tools' - except to buy a screwdriver I suppose... 

Incidentally, the RSAF official records I was able to cross-check in transcript state that the first MkIII's were produced  in 1902 - a grand total of 3, yes three!

They continue by noting that 1903 saw 84 MkII's converted to MkIII pattern, and 52,598 MkIII's produced, with a further 12,402 in 1904, the last year of production. 

As for the inspector's mark, you could be right. I don't have the data or an example to confirm a J7 Enfield inspector. I read it as a 'B'. BUT, don't forget - if you knew - that P.1888 bayonets were also supplied to RSAF by outside suppliers, i.e., private firms - 143,350 MkII's alone in 1902. What I don't know is where these were produced and inspected. Birmingham had several independent bayonet makers... 

Anyway, all that aside, this is a discussion forum... Soon, and to paraphrase, "2022 will bring a New Year and I will still be here", happy as ever to share information and even off-the-cuff thoughts to fellow bayonet enthusiasts! And always happy to be corrected when necessary!

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

All Enfield made bayonets from that period have E suffix Inspection marks so the EFD is a giveaway that what you are looking at is an E, regardless of any possible deficiencies in eyesight or prior knowledge. 

Cheers, SS 

[Joseph Wardell]

Thanks guys for your knowledge on this topic and you have both blown my mind with everything you’ve both said but I was curious as SS stated earlier that it was unusual for the 4 (I’m guessing) serial numbers to be on their own, so was this just a mistake or a change in inventory system or something different. 
Cheers Joseph

[trajan]

52 minutes ago, Joseph Wardell said:

Thanks guys for your knowledge on this topic and you have both blown my mind with everything you’ve both said but I was curious as SS stated earlier that it was unusual for the 4 (I’m guessing) serial numbers to be on their own, so was this just a mistake or a change in inventory system or something different. 
Cheers Joseph

Hi,

SS is quite correct in saying these are some form of inventory system, but lacking any form of letters presents difficulties in interpreting them!

British bayonets with serial numbers often have an abbreviation before the number indicating the unit - 'R.A.F.', for example, is for the Royal Air Force. Not all of them are that straightforward though! That said, many bayonets just have a serial number, and I have one or more P.1888's like this.  But, such numbers - in my limited experience - use a smaller font, about half the size of yours. All I can say is these don't look GB to me.

Julian  

[trajan]

1 hour ago, shippingsteel said:

All Enfield made bayonets from that period have E suffix Inspection marks so the EFD is a giveaway that what you are looking at is an E, regardless of any possible deficiencies in eyesight or prior knowledge. 

Cheers, SS 

Thank you SS! What would we do without you! 

[Joseph Wardell]

Great to know that you have a couple like this but this bayonet was purchased in New Zealand which is a commonwealth country so could it have been a British make and model but have been issued in New Zealand

[trajan]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Wardell said:

Great to know that you have a couple like this but this bayonet was purchased in New Zealand which is a commonwealth country so could it have been a British make and model but have been issued in New Zealand

Quite possible! Come to think of it, in my experience four-figure serials are not common (if they exist at all!) on bayonets registered to GB units, but do appear - if I remember - on P.07's for New Zealand... One of my hookies is, I think, stamped that way. Perhaps one of our NZ members will latch on to this thread and comment.

Julian   

[Joseph Wardell]

Hopefully but come to think of it is there anywhere that you know of where I would be able to cross reference the serial number with records or something of that nature. 
Joey

[shippingsteel]

You need to check the other side of the pommel (butt of the bayonet) near the press stud to see if there is a Star type marking, of conjoined arrows eg. -><-

This marking will indicate if it has been Sold out of British service to another country such as New Zealand which was a known user of this type bayonet. 

Finding that mark will essentially confirm NZ usage, to my mind, and from my experience of the NZ examples I have seen. They did use large numerals and larger serial numbers.

Cheers, SS 

[trajan]

3 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

You need to check the other side of the pommel (butt of the bayonet) near the press stud to see if there is a Star type marking, of conjoined arrows eg. -><-

This marking will indicate if it has been Sold out of British service to another country such as New Zealand which was a known user of this type bayonet. 

Finding that mark will essentially confirm NZ usage, to my mind, and from my experience of the NZ examples I have seen. They did use large numerals and larger serial numbers.

Cheers, SS 

 

Good to see that SS agrees with me in my earlier post that those large numbers cld be NZ serials. Have a look also at: https://tradeinmilitary.nz/product/british-sanderson-p1888-lee-metford-enfield-bayonet-scabbard/

julian

[Joseph Wardell]

Hi guys,

I’m not very “bayonet savvy” I’ve attached pictures of what I think the pommel is (please correct me if I’m wrong) and unless I’m looking in the wrong spot I can’t seem to see it. Maybe it’s too rusted or something but no luck

[trajan]

Yes that's the pommel! Markings are usually on the two wider flat sides, ie.e, where your serial number is and on the opposite side.

I personally have never seen a sold-out-of service marking on a British-made P.1888 issued to non-GB units. They are found on P.1907's issued 'down under'. Perhaps SS knows of an example on a P.1888 he can show us.  The rationale behind these 'SOS' markings seems to be they were commissioned / made for GB army, and when issued to Australian and New Zealand units they were deemed as 'Sold out of Service' for on-paper accounting purposes. If I am wrong SS will doubtless rush to correct me!

[trajan]

SOS markings came in two forms. One is in the form of opposed propellor blades - see, e.g., https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/295053-1888-pattern-bayonet/#comment-3078195 

The other is in the form of two opposed arrowhead-like marks - see, e.g., https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/239146-early-nz-p1907-bayonet/ which also has the NZ 'big numbers' but on the crossguard.

Julian

 

[shippingsteel]

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/225457-australian-nz-marked-p88-or-p03-bayonets/

SOS marks shown in this thread. 

Also another nice clear example of the Inspection mark stamped on the bayonet in the OP. (courtesy 4thGordons)

Edited 26 December , 2021 by shippingsteel

[trajan]

Thankee kindlly SS!

[Joseph Wardell]

I also added some rust remover ( not sure if that was a good idea) to it and there is no distinct markings on it

[shippingsteel]

1 hour ago, trajan said:

SOS markings came in two forms. One is in the form of opposed propellor blades - see, e.g., https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/295053-1888-pattern-bayonet/#comment-3078195 

That is INcorrect. Those stamped "propellor blades" are the official Cancellation Mark in British service. The proper way to mark out unit abbreviations and rack numbers that were no longer applicable upon reissue. 

Cheers, SS 

[trajan]

27 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

That is INcorrect. Those stamped "propellor blades" are the official Cancellation Mark in British service. The proper way to mark out unit abbreviations and rack numbers that were no longer applicable upon reissue. 

Cheers, SS 

Thakee again SS, me old sunshine! As I said before, "If I am wrong SS will doubtless rush to correct me!"!