2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers question

[lettman]

Am I correct in thinking the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers were the first 2nd Line Territorial battalion to see action on the Western Front (if not the whole war)? If so, what was the process by which a 2nd Line TF unit was sent to the front ahead of even many 1st Line TF units? Thanks in advance for any information or leads.

[brianmorris547]

Check The Long Long Trail for the TF Bns of each County Regiment and it should tell you when The Bn went overseas and with which Brigade/Division. 

1/5 LFs went out to Egypt with the East Lancashire (Later 42) Div in September 1914 and later fought in Gallipoli. From TLLT 2/5 LFs were raised as a Home Service Bn but were transferred to 51 Division.

The War Diary of the A&QMG 51 Div starts from Mobilization and records that the 3rd Highland Brigade comprised of three Lancashire TF Bns 1/4 KORL, 1/8 Kings Liverpool and 1/4 Loyal North Lancs and one Scottish Bn 1/6 Scottish Rifles. At some point the Cameronians were replaced by 2/5 LFs.

The AQ Diary records that a number of men were not volunteering for overseas service in some cases because some Officers were incapable of command. These Officers had to be removed.

It could be that the lack of volunteers for overseas service determined which TF Units went out first.

Brian

Edited 14 December , 2021 by brianmorris547
typo

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

As you will see from the "interests" listed below my avatar, the 1/5th and 2/5th LF are special interests of mine, owing to the fact that my grandfather was in both. I am not qualified to speak about other Territorial units, but I know that the 1/5th landed in Egypt on 25 September 1914, and the 2/5th (including my grandad) landed in France on 3 May 1915. I stand to be corrected by those who are more expert in the field, but I believe that strictly speaking the 1/5th LF were the 5th Battalion when they went to Egypt in 1914, and that the members of the 5th Battalion who were left behind in Britain were the 5th Reserve Battalion, quickly becoming the 2/5th Battalion (at which time obviously the Battalion already overseas became the 1/5th), with the formation of the 3/5th Battalion swiftly following. I have a copy of the regimental history, The History of the Lancashire Fusiliers 1914-1918 by Major General J.C. Latter (one of my grandfather's fellow officers, then a lowly 2nd Lieutenant, when the 2/5th landed in France on 3 May 1915), which says that when the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th Battalions went to Egypt in September 1914 "they were amongst the first Territorial soldiers to set foot on foreign soil", with the additional comment that "Later, when the second line Territorial formations had been organised, the 2nd/5th Battalion was the first second-line Territorial infantry battalion to be sent to the Expeditionary Force. It is a unique distinction that the Territorial battalions of the regiment should have been the first of their lines to be sent overseas." I believe that elsewhere Major General Latter expresses a view  as to why they achieved this distinction, and, if I can find the relevant passage, I will post again.

Meanwhile @lettman, may I ask what your interest in the 2/5th is?

Edited 15 December , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[lettman]

Many thanks to both of you for your detailed replies. They've helped fill in some gaps in my understanding of how the unit was formed and eventually sent overseas. Apart from a broad interest in the regiments of the British Army, I also have a medal trio to a 2/5th Lancashire Fusilier, 3556 Pte H. Hedley, which I acquired after some preliminary research which led me to believe the 2/5th might have been the first 2nd Line unit to serve overseas.

[brianmorris547]

The raising of the 2/5 LFs mirror what happened to the local TF Bn for Bolton, 5 Loyal North Lancs. 2/5, 3/5 and 4/5 LNL were raised in Bolton in 1915 when the TF was expanded.

The Bolton Artillery, 3 East Lancs Brigade RFA (T) also went to Egypt in September 1914 with the East Lancs Div and two more Brigades, 2/3 and 3/3 were raised in Bolton in 1915. The 1/5 Bde came into in Action on the Suez Canal in February 1915 making them the first TF Artillery to go into Action. 

The East Lancs Artillery went to Egypt with 1 ELB (Blackburn) and 3 ELB (Bolton). 2 ELB (Manchester) did not go out until 1915 and it was reported in the papers that this was due to the majority of 1 and 3 ELB having volunteered for overseas service. Some of 2 ELB who had volunteered did go out with 1 and 3 ELB.

Brian 

[ss002d6252]

13 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

but I believe that strictly speaking the 1/5th LF were the 5th Battalion when they went to Egypt in 1914, and that the members of the 5th Battalion who were left behind in Britain were the 5th Reserve Battalion, quickly becoming the 2/5th Battalion (at which time obviously the Battalion already overseas became the 1/5th), with the formation of the 3/5th Battalion swiftly following.

They certainly had a convoluted system. As I understand it, the 1/ and 2/ prefixes weren't officially introduced until early 15. Until then the first line was still known as the 5th, and the future second line was still the 5th (reserve).

Craig

[brianmorris547]

Craig

The Bolton Journal Rally to the Flag 23/04/1915 named recruits to 3 East Lancs RFA under "3rd East Lancashire RFA" and recruits to 5 Loyals under "Pals Battalion" (as it was unofficially known). The last Rally to the Flag in the BJ on 29/10/1915 was still showing "Bolton Artillery" and "Pals Battalion". 

Brian

Edited 15 December , 2021 by brianmorris547

[ss002d6252]

The RFA and Service Battalions (Pals) weren't affected by the change in the TF naming structure.

Craig

[brianmorris547]

Craig

I agree. Both Units were TF but what later became 2/5 LNL and 4/5 LNL did not recruit under those prefixes. I was agreeing with your previous post.  The Name "Pals Batallion" was not Official.

Brian

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 14/12/2021 at 15:25, brianmorris547 said:

It could be that the lack of volunteers for overseas service determined which TF Units went out first.

In The History of the Lancashire Fusiliers 1914-1918. immediately prior to the passage I quoted above, Latter briefly describes the process whereby the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th came to form a Brigade ready for active service overseas with the 42nd Division as early as September 1914, and it looks as though it is correct that the number of men volunteering to serve overseas was a major factor. Initially it was thought that by pooling those willing to serve overseas from all four battalions two battalions could be brought up to strength, which were to be called the No 6 and No 7 Service Battalions, but this proposed scheme lasted only four days from 25 August to 29 August 1914, at which time Major General W. Douglas, the East Lancashire Division's Divisional Commander, called a conference at which he said that if 60% of each batallion volunteered for overseas service the East Lancashire Division could go overseas as a whole. This presumably provided quite an incentive to men to volunteer, and also to persuade their comrades to volunteer. Thus the required  60% was speedily more than achieved in all four battalions, and they were then brought up to full strength by men who had ceased to be members of the TF rejoining. Thus it was that the 42nd Division, including the 1/5th LF (then the 5th Battalion LF) was "the first TF Division to move overseas" (as per the LLT).

On 15/12/2021 at 10:12, ss002d6252 said:

As I understand it, the 1/ and 2/ prefixes weren't officially introduced until early 15. Until then the first line was still known as the 5th, and the future second line was still the 5th (reserve).

In a later chapter Latter says that when the East Lancashire Division departed for Egypt those of the 5th Battalion who remained behind, "a reserve, draft-finding unit" were initially called the 5th (Home Service) Battalion, but by January 1915 had been renamed the 5th (Reserve) Battalion. In fact my grandfather consistently refers to the members of 5th Battalion left behind in Britain and new recruits joining that unit as the 5th Reserve Battalion right from September 1914, but no doubt Latter, as the official historian, is correct as to the official title.  The Reserve unit then found that it was itself preparing itself for active service overseas, at which stage (which Latter says was in about March 1915) it became the 2/5th LF, while the unit in Egypt became the 1/5th LF.

On 14/12/2021 at 20:08, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I believe that elsewhere Major General Latter expresses a view  as to why they achieved this distinction, and, if I can find the relevant passage, I will post again.

As for how the 2/5th LF became ready to be sent to the Western Front before other TF units, Latter says that, e.g. "Musketry training was specialized under selected N.C.Os. as being a quicker way of putting men through the syllabus than leaving the task to (necessarily) partially trained company N.C.Os. The 2nd/5th claims to have initiated the system and to have proved its value: it is certainly true that the unit was selected for service overseas before others which adhered to the conventional methods ..."

[lettman]

Again, many thanks for the detailed information, especially regarding the 2/5th's preparation and training.

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

18 hours ago, lettman said:

Again, many thanks for the detailed information, especially regarding the 2/5th's preparation and training.

You are welcome, Lettman If you are interested specifically in the preparation and training of the 2/5th, you could do worse than read my grandad's book, which begins by giving an account of this very thing. Apologies if you are already aware of the book, as I have mentioned it in a few places on the Forum, and also in my signature below.

Meanwhile, I now realise that it is not quite right that my grandfather never refers to the men of the 5th Battalion who were left behind when their comrades preceded to Egypt by the title "Home Service", as his entry for Monday 19 October 1914 says: "On this particular Monday ... the 5^th Res (HS) Battalion LF moved from MOSSBOROUGH to billets in Southport"(Mossborough being the place where the nucleus left behind by the Egyptian contingent were based, and Southport being where the 2/5th did most of its training).

Nevertheless, entries pre-dating 19 October refer to Lieutenant Colonel Hall (no relation to my grandfather, though they shared the same surname) being appointed as CO of the 5th Res, and to men (including himself) applying for commissions in the 5th Res. He himself had originally enlisted with the Liverpool Pals as a private on 3 September 1914, but the following day was encouraged to apply for a commission in the Lancashire Fusiliers once authority was given to raise a reserve battalion of the LF in his home town of Bury. He says that that happened "a few days later", and his name - along with the names of several others who later became his fellow officers - was put on the name of prospective officers in the new unit. He would certainly never have applied for transfer to a battalion that was expected to serve only in Britain. But presumably, even if authority had been given for the Reserve Battalion to be formed, it would take a little time to confirm it as such, so in the meantime it might well have continued to be dubbed "Home Service". As Craig says, the system seems to have been a little convoluted.

I have checked for when my grandfather makes the first regference to the 2/5th, and the first mention I can find is in April 1915, when he says that "rumours got about that the 2/5th Bn were going to move", which fits with Latter saying that the change happened in about March 1915.

 

[lettman]

I've had a look through the website and will investigate ordering the book (I need to find out postage to Australia). Thanks again for the leads.

[brianmorris547]

This is an example of the form signed by members of the TF who agreed to serve overseas in an emergency.

From WO 364 of 560 Dvr William Oxford, who went out to Egypt with the Bolton Artillery in September 1914. He enlisted in 1910 and was discharged in 1916 Time Expired. There is a letter in his file that he re enlisted into the RGA as 184177. He is named on the BW&V medal rolls twice as Wm 560 (RFA roll 0207) and as William 184177 (RGA roll 0296)

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Do we know what the "consitions stated overleaf" were, Brian?

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

From the Service Record of 681 Bdr Thomas Partington 3 East Lancs Brigade RFA T  (Ancestry WO 363 Par 231362) 

Brian

Edited 27 December , 2021 by brianmorris547

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

3 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

From the Service Record of 681 Bdr Thomas Partington 3 East Lancs Brigade RFA T  (Ancestry WO 363 Par 231362) 

That's interesting, thank you, Brian. Interesting that they couldn't be drafted to other units, though logical when you think about it, as it would have put many volunteers off if they thought that they might not be with their own unit.

Also, you have sent me scurrying to look at my grandad's buttons and badges, to see if I can identify the badge in question. I think that the attached is the best candidate. No doubt someone will put me right if this was not it. I can't see anything else that would fit the bill better. The main thing that makes me doubt it is that I believe that my grandfather would have volunteered for overseas service in 1914 as soon as he enlisted, rather than waiting till 1915. But perhaps he would have had to have waited until he had done at least some training before signing the official form? 

Tricia

 

[ss002d6252]

This was the Imperial Service badge for agreeing to overseas service (Off the top of my head they set a date around Oct 1914 when they ceased handing out the badges).



Craig

[ss002d6252]

57 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

That's interesting, thank you, Brian. Interesting that they couldn't be drafted to other units, though logical when you think about it, as it would have put many volunteers off if they thought that they might not be with their own unit.

Also, you have sent me scurrying to look at my grandad's buttons and badges, to see if I can identify the badge in question. I think that the attached is the best candidate. No doubt someone will put me right if this was not it. I can't see anything else that would fit the bill better. The main thing that makes me doubt it is that I believe that my grandfather would have volunteered for overseas service in 1914 as soon as he enlisted, rather than waiting till 1915. But perhaps he would have had to have waited until he had done at least some training before signing the official form? 

Tricia

 

That badge is one used for a civilian who was working in something like a munitions or weapons factory. Apparently, it's the Royal Ordnance factory crest in the middle.

Craig

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

This is from the Pension Record of 912 Gnr Jack Proctor who went to Egypt with The Blackburn Artillery, 1 East Lancs Brigade RFA T. (WO 364 Pro 2019). A pre war attestation with the terms and conditions. Where it says turn over at the bottom of the page it goes onto the attestation details. 

Brian

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

10 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

This was the Imperial Service badge for agreeing to overseas service (Off the top of my head they set a date around Oct 1914 when they ceased handing out the badges).

Thank you, Craig, I knew that someone would keep me right if the one that I posted wasn't it!

There isn't an Imperial Service badge amongst the badges and buttons that I have, but that doesn't necessarily mean that my grandfather didn't have one, as I don't know where his medals are either. I am checking whether they may be held by Bury's Fusilier Museum, as I found a letter not long ago which shows that he helped with the arrangement of the Museum when it was established in the Wellington Barracks at Bury in the 1930s.

My grandfather enlisted with the 3rd City Battalion King's Liverpool Regiment as a private on 3 September 1914, obtaining a commission as a 2nd Lieutenant in the LF, 5th Reserve Battalion, with effect from 7 October 1914. I do think that he would have volunteered for overseas service at the earliest opportunity as that was the whole point of his feeling that it was his duty to enlist, and he shows himself to have been very indignant at one point (in January 1915) when he perceived  that he was being treated as if he was a Home Service man, in that he was sent  with two other officers to help train what became the nucleus of the 3/5th LF in Bury while the rest of the 5th Reserve were training in Southport to prepare for service overseas. He says of the other two officers that they were Home Service men at this time, and continues:

"I was NOT. I never could understand why I was sent." [his emphasis]

It therefore seems likely that my grandfather would have been entitled to the Imperial Service badge, unless they were not able to volunteer for overseas immediately upon enlistment.

I did wonder whether he might have lost the badge when he was wounded on the Somme in September 1916, but would they have worn this sort of badge into battle? And in any case he states that in April 1918 he was still wearing the same battle jacket "badly torn and patched" as he had worn when wounded in 1916.

As for the other badge, it clearly was not my grandfather's, given that he had enlisted in 1914. He does not mention that any of his family worked in a munitions factory, but I see that a factory in Radcliffe near Bury, owned by Dobson and Barlow Ltd, converted from manufacturing textile machinery to manufacturing munitions etc. during WW1, so it is not impossible that a member of one of my grandparents' families was engaged in the manufacture of munitions in 1915. I need to do some more family research I think!

8 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

A pre war attestation with the terms and conditions. Where it says turn over at the bottom of the page it goes onto the attestation details. 

Thank you for posting, Brian. I assume that my grandfather would have signed something similar on enlistment, and also, either then or later, the other form agreeing to serve overseas.

Tricia