Ernest Cooper did he serve in WW1?

[adrian 1008]

Good afternoon all.

Just doing some digging for a family in the village.

Ernest William or Walter Cooper was born in 1874 in Halstead Essex, He lived at various addresses in Halstead and joinrd the Colours in 1901 serving in S Africa with Essex Yeomanry. He was awarded the QSA & KSA regimental No 20599 He leaves the Yeomanry in 1902

In 1907 he wins a shooting cup which is inscribed Trumpeter  EW Cooper 'B' Sqn Middlewick Colchester Essex Imp Yeo ( He is listed as a Bugler /Trumpeter)

In 1911 He marries one Edith Leech.

The family believe he served in WW1, but I am not sure as He was born in 1874 making him 40 yrs old in 1914. Under the MSA 1916 he would be exempt for call up due to age and being married, however hazy recollections believe he served somewhere, he was a well sinker and then bricklayer by trade.

My searching has lead me to one Ernest W Cooper RE (WR201701) enlisted 25.10.1917 Discharged 03.07.1919 due to sickness (Issued SWB)

I would appreciate colleagues expertise in confirming or  breaking this (tenuous) link

 

 

[tullybrone]

Hi,

I’ve never seen it on any other unit roll but this medal roll appears to record the man’s age in the far right column?

If that is what it is then it won’t be your man born 1874.

 

Steve

[RaySearching]

Sapper Ernest William Cooper WR.201701 was born in 1899 so not your man

(source of year of birth  pension records)

 

Ray

[adrian 1008]

Thanks Steve. the same idea crossed my mind, but like you having not seen it before on a roll discounted it

I need to think again !

Thank you Ray.... Back to the drawing board !

[PRC]

In my limited experience the information recorded on the Silver War Badge Roll not only varied between the many Regiments and Corps but also within their over the duration of the period the badges were issued. Some did indeed record age last birthday on discharge, one of the standard pieces of information on the front of the discharge form. In this case it would indeed seem to confirm this Royal Engineer was not the Halstead born man.

The age limit for conscription was raised later on, so he could have become liable to serve.

Alternative routes to identifying if he served:-

Were there any children born during the years when he might have been serving - (I'm not seeing any but I don't know if Leech was his wifes maiden name). Birth certificates would show fathers occupation, and if he was serving that will normally include rank and regiment \ corps. If nothing else it might confirm he wasn't serving.

Absent Voter Lists for 1918 & 1919, if they have survived. If he wasn't serving then he would be on the regular electoral register.

Newspaper reports. I don't have subscription access to FindMyPast or the British Newspaper Archive website, so can't check whether the reference to a Trumpet-Major Ernest Cooper, a native of Halstead, has any more additional details in the newspaper report that would make him a lead worth following up. Certaily sounds like it might be Essex Yeomanry related. And of course predates the MSA.

 

Cheers,
Peter

[adrian 1008]

Thank you Peter thats a great help. So he did serve, as a Musketry Ins in Hounslow.

I cant find a medal card so presumably he was home based for his service, but would fit in with the shooting cup of 1907

I have the subscription to BNA but can only print the page which is to small to read, I cant work out how to highlight the article, expand it and save to a print

[adrian 1008]

Speaking to the family last night with an update, they recall something about a pension. Would Yeomanry service count towards a pension 

He is a reservist in 1907 and an instructor in 1915.

Again your advice appreciated

[PRC]

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

Speaking to the family last night with an update, they recall something about a pension. Would Yeomanry service count towards a pension 

A long service pension would be very, very unlikely. My understanding is that only periods when embodied would have counted and so very unlikely to get to the length of service required. What shouldn't be ruled out is a disability pension - if he was medically discharged for a condition caused or aggravated by his service then there could be a pension entitlement, depending on it's impact on his ability to work. For example I've come across several men over the years serving with home service mounted units who were kicked by, stood on or fell from horses, the damage incurred leading to their discharge. (Others died from such injuries).

I'm not readily seeing a likely Silver War Badge MiC, although those were only automatically issued to other ranks honourably discharged from mid-1916. Other ranks discharged before then had to apply for them, and not all did. Another check might be the pension ledger cards, (transcripts on Ancestry, images in Fold3). I don't subscribe to either, but for instance from whats available publicly I can see they have some for an Ernest Cooper who is associated post-discharge with Thaxtead. I know that isn't the next village but nor is it a million miles away.

May also be worthwhile checking out his entry on the 1939 Register. It's not perfect, but I have come across individuals whose occupation is shown in full or in part as "Army pensioner".

Hope that helps,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

15 minutes ago, PRC said:

Another check might be the pension ledger cards, (transcripts on Ancestry, images in Fold3). I don't subscribe to either, but for instance from whats available publicly I can see they have some for an Ernest Cooper who is associated post-discharge with Thaxtead. I know that isn't the next village but nor is it a million miles away.

Have you a link Peter and I'll have a look.

Craig

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Have you a link Peter and I'll have a look.

Craig

Unfotunately a free account on Ancestry does not permit of such luxuries - any attempt to push on past the public search takes me to the subscription screen.

Criteria used for a search in Military records was

First & Middle Name(s): Ernest
Last Name: Cooper
Birth: 1874
Keyword: Essex Yeomanry

Second match is at the top of this screenshot, pension ledger card is the third.

Cheers,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

I can't get Ancestry to repeat those same results @PRC - can you post the URL for that page after your search and I'll try that way.

Craig

[PRC]

Odd - I couldn't find it either until I narrowed the search to Pension records where this time it was the eighth match on the same search criteria https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/categories/mil_pension/?name=Ernest_Cooper&birth=1874&keyword=Essex+Yeomanry&location=3257.3250&priority=united-kingdom

Cheers,
Peter

[helpjpl]

23 hours ago, PRC said:

May also be worthwhile checking out his entry on the 1939 Register. It's not perfect, but I have come across individuals whose occupation is shown in full or in part as "Army pensioner".

1.  The 1939 Register records Ernest's occupation as Bricklayer. - Mitchell Avenue, Halstead (from ancestry):

 

2. Ernest Walter Cooper, born 30 October 1874, married Edith Leach 07 August 1911 at Halstead St Andrew. 

On 06/12/2021 at 15:21, PRC said:

Were there any children born during the years when he might have been serving. Birth certificates would show fathers occupation, and if he was serving that will normally include rank and regiment \ corps. If nothing else it might confirm he wasn't serving.

Children:

John Ernest Cooper born 26 July 1912

Eric Leach Cooper born 07 November 1913

Enid Lilian Cooper born 11 February 1915

Alan Cooper born 30 July 1916

Adela Cooper born 02 March 1919 (birth registered Apr-Jun 1919)

Doris Cooper birth registered Apr-Jun 1922

Peter Cooper birth registered Apr-Jun 1926

Joan Cooper birth registered Apr-Jun 1928

JP

 

Edited 8 December , 2021 by helpjpl

[adrian 1008]

Thank you, this is coming together nicely with thanks to all who have helped, one final question (I think) He appears to have served in a training role throughout WW1 being based at the training Depot in Hounslow. would he have qualified for the BWM & VM ?

 

I ve read the medal yearbook entry and think he should but no MIC ??

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

He appears to have served in a training role throughout WW1 being based at the training Depot in Hounslow. would he have qualified for the BWM & VM ?

If he stayed just on training, then it's very unlikely that he would have qualified for any medals (grounds for medals on home service were very limited).

Craig

[ss002d6252]

23 hours ago, PRC said:

Odd - I couldn't find it either until I narrowed the search to Pension records where this time it was the eighth match on the same search criteria https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/categories/mil_pension/?name=Ernest_Cooper&birth=1874&keyword=Essex+Yeomanry&location=3257.3250&priority=united-kingdom

Cheers,
Peter

https://www.fold3.com/image/700684793?xid=1022

Craig

[adrian 1008]

This isnt the same man. My Ernest Cooper has never lived in thaxted, I accept its a village not far from Halstead but diferent man, Thank you for suggesting

[PRC]

14 hours ago, helpjpl said:

The 1939 Register records Ernest's occupation as Bricklayer. - Mitchell Avenue, Halstead

Thanks for checking - always worthwhile to close down these potential lines of enquiry.

14 hours ago, helpjpl said:

Enid Lilian Cooper born 11 February 1915

Alan Cooper born 30 July 1916

Adela Cooper born 02 March 1919 (birth registered Apr-Jun 1919)

@adrian 1008

Looks potentially like three birth certificates the family may want to consider putchasing for confirmation of his service.

12 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

https://www.fold3.com/image/700684793?xid=1022

Craig

Thanks for checking Craig, sorry it proved a dead end.

12 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

He appears to have served in a training role throughout WW1 being based at the training Depot in Hounslow. would he have qualified for the BWM & VM ?

My understanding is that Home service only with the British Army would not have qualified him for any service medals. See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/

Cheers,
Peter

[eyman]

Adrian

Ernest Walter Cooper served in Essex Imperial Yeomanry from Oct 1902 as number 301, becoming number 56 in the EY (TF) in 1908. He was discharged in 1912 but appears to have served again at home in WW1. Originally 2VB Essex R, he served as 20599 Tptr, 44th Co IY earning QSA and 4 clasps. He received the IY Long Service Medal in Nov 1907.  

Ian

[adrian 1008]

Thank you Ian thats a great help, what is the source of your info please

[George Rayner]

On 06/12/2021 at 16:02, adrian 1008 said:

Thank you Peter thats a great help. So he did serve, as a Musketry Ins in Hounslow.

I don't understand how you have made this link? The report says that they-Sergeant Sudbury and Ernest Cooper-were both from Halstead. Sudbury was an instructor at Hounslow and Cooper attended the funeral in Halstead.

I may have missed something of course

George

[adrian 1008]

Thank you George, The link is the article in the Essex Chronicle newspaper from 2nd July 1915

Sgt Ernest Cooper was a Pall Bearer at Sgt Sudburys funeral, they both served in the same Trn Btn they both came from Halstead

Ernest Cooper s family have a cup and shooting medals, and a couple of letters

 

[Allan1892]

On 06/12/2021 at 16:02, adrian 1008 said:

I have the subscription to BNA but can only print the page which is to small to read, I cant work out how to highlight the article, expand it and save to a print

I have attached images of the article but have had to do it in a number of images to try and get something readable. (images courtesy of Find My Past)

[George Rayner]

Thanks. I'd got that but didn't see him mentioned as an instructor

George

[eyman]

12 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

Thank you Ian thats a great help, what is the source of your info please

Adrian 

Various sources including his IY service papers, Essex IY Magazine (later Essex Yeomanry Magazine), QSA rolls etc. BTW he made it to L Cpl in May 1912 having been a Bugler with 2VB Essex R and then Trumpeter with the yeomanry. He is reported as Trumpet Major in this and other sources in WW1, and it is on that alone we can so far rest his WW1 service (unless of course the press have mistakenly described him as Trumpet Major). 

Ian