Help identifying Officer

[thedawnpatrol]

Can anyone identify the Regiment this Officer is serving with ? 

The only indicator of who he is, is on the back, simply C.F.A.  1916

thank you

julian

 

[Michelle Young]

Looks like a general service button as his cap badge, I can make out T (territorial) under his collar badges, but I can’t make out the badge I’m afraid. It might be a grande, so one of the fusiliers regiments. 
Michelle 

[James123]

Looks like The Royal Irish Regiment to me however, someone more knowledgeable than myself will I'm sure say for sure

[Michelle Young]

@CorporalPunishment@FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Royal Irish Rifles.  The cap badge is a coiled rope boss with Harp mounted thereon and he has black buttons on his jacket and shoulder straps.

Edited 6 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Royal Irish Rifles.  The cap badge is a coiled rope boss with Harp mounted thereon and he has black buttons on his shoulder straps.

 

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

I can make out T (territorial) under his collar badges

If it is a "T" and as the Irish Regiments didn't have Territorial Force Battalion, is he likely to be attached from a Territorial Force Reserve of Officers? Was there such a thing?

Just trying to think of ways to track him down.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

A very good question Peter.  I’ve been puzzling over whether they are T’s beneath the collar badges, as I’m limited to a phone screen, but after squinting for some time I think that they probably are.  I’ve not heard of TF Reserve officers being attached to the Irish Regiments, that as you say did not have TF units, but given the struggle post 1916 to keep Irish units up-to-strength, it seems entirely conceivable that they did.  I imagine that @corisandeand @Jervismight have covered this in their other research. 

[corisande]

Sorry, afraid I cannot help.

It is certainly a "T" on the collar, but as far as I am aware, the Irish Regiments had no Territorials

A quick check on LLT for RDF says "As the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act of 1907 did not call for the creation of TF units in Ireland, the regiment had no TF battalions."

Edited 6 December , 2021 by corisande

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, corisande said:

Sorry, afraid I cannot help.

It is certainly a "T" on the collar, but as far as I am aware, the Irish Regiments had no Territorials

A quick check on LLT for RDF says "As the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act of 1907 did not call for the creation of TF units in Ireland, the regiment had no TF battalions."

Thank you for such a prompt reply corisande.  The absence of volunteer/Territorial battalions was very long standing (and politically driven) as you know.  I can only assume that this was a Territorial officer reservist from another regiment posted to the RIR as an expedient measure.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, thedawnpatrol said:

The only indicator of who he is, is on the back, simply C.F.A.  1916

Assuming C is a first name initial and A a surname initial and that any qualifying service for medals is likely to start at the 2nd Lieutenant \ Lieutenant stage, (all BIG assumptions), then at least as far as MiC's there are only two potential candidates, a C.P.A. and a C.R.A who served with the Royal Irish Rifles. Depending on the quality of the handwriting, the materials and the amount of fading it could be possible for a P or an R to look like an F.

C.P.A. was a Charles Pryce Abbott, a pre-war Private in the Army Service, commissioned into the 19th (Reserve) Battalion before seeing service with the Indian Army and even possibly the Tank Corps in Iraq - see references to officers rolls received for the IGSM with clasp on the back of his MiC. That doesn't really seem to imply a Territorial Force connection.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

He wasn't commissioned until October 1917, which given the date on the photograph would also appear to rule him out. ttps://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30390/supplement/11990/data.pdf

C.R.A. is shown on the MiC as C.R. Aickin, 8th Battalion. However he appears to have been ineligible for medals. I'm not seeing any officer records for him in the National Archive catalogue, nor is he listed on the establishment of the 8th Battalion on the December 1916 British Army Monthly list. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123861499

Image courtesy Ancestry.

If the officer photographed was on the strength of the Royal Irish Rifles he may not have applied for his medals, either through choice or because he was aware he wasn't entitled to any. It might still be possible, although tedious, to identify potential candidates from the Army List entries for the Regiment.

However if he was only attached and that arrangment came to an end - through wounds, ill-health or being surplus to requirement - then any MiC that exists may simply reference his parent unit. At that point trying to identify an officer with the initials C.F.A. would become the proverbial needle in a haystack - unless anyone has a better plan of attack

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

The only thing I can add is that if merely ‘attached’ he would not wear the insignia of the RIR.  He would have to be ‘posted’ to the regiment for duty, in which case he goes on their ‘held strength’ and wears their insignia.  Most officers posted in that way stayed with the regiment to which they were posted until wounded, killed, or end of hostilities.  An attachment was a more temporary arrangement where a return to parent unit was always on the cards.  I realise that these protocols must seem arcane to the unfamiliar, but they are bread and butter in the MS (military secretariat) world. 

Edited 6 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Jervis]

It does appear to be Royal Irish Rifles and the most likely scenario.

But another scenario worth excluding would be an English/Scottish Territorials with an Irish connection. E.g 18th London (Irish) Rifles, 8th Kings Liverpool, Tyneside Irish. 

I am not expert on cap badges, but the three named above do not seem to be a match. However I don’t know if there are other territorial regiments with an Irish connection that I am missing. 

Jervis

[corisande]

31 minutes ago, PRC said:

Charles Pryce Abbott, a pre-war Private in the Army Service, commissioned into the 19th (Reserve) Battalion before seeing service with the Indian Army and even possibly the Tank Corps in Iraq -

As you see on his MIC he had Dublin connections

He was in fact born Dublin

And his fathers obit adds a bit about his life

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Jervis said:

It does appear to be Royal Irish Rifles and the most likely scenario.

But another scenario worth excluding would be an English/Scottish Territorials with an Irish connection. E.g 18th London (Irish) Rifles, 8th Kings Liverpool, Tyneside Irish. 

I am not expert on cap badges, but the three named above do not seem to be a match. However I don’t know if there are other territorial regiments with an Irish connection that I am missing. 

Jervis

The insignia on the man in the photo is categorically Royal Irish Rifles, Jervis, so you can be confident in ruling those other regiments out.

Were it not for his incompatible commissioning date the first fellow that Peter identified with the 19th (Reserve) Battalion, would seem the strongest prospect.  I don’t know what the protocol was for a former regular soldier to gain a commission in the Territorial Force Reserve of Officers, but that does seem a possible means of entry.  As an ex regular of some years experience one could then imagine him being seem as a potential officer for the RIR at a time when gaining battle casualty replacements for all the Irish regiments was presenting real difficulties.

Edited 6 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

So the first of @PRC's men is looking quite likely

"Charles Pryce Abbott" was born "Charles Price Abbott" and appears to have been in ASC as "Charles Price Abbott"

He landed in France on 18 Aug 1914 with ASC #M1/08562. So he must have been in the Army in one way or another prewar

He was born in Dublin and lived in Dublin pre-war

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

As you see on his MIC he had Dublin connections

He was in fact born Dublin

And his fathers obit adds a bit about his life

It’s often conveniently overlooked because of subsequent allegiances, and a title change, that the Royal Irish Rifles had a strong association with Dublin, matched only by that with Belfast.  The two regiments that after 1881 went on to make up the first and second battalions had been the County of Dublin and County Down Regiments.  Certainly up to the time of WW1 and until partition the regiment still had some strong association with the city of Dublin and South of Ireland.  It was only really the preponderance of service battalions raised in the North, with such Loyalist allegiances as the ‘Young Citizen Volunteers’, that changed that and led to the fundamental shift in orientation post war.

14 minutes ago, corisande said:

So the first of @PRC's men is looking quite likely

"Charles Pryce Abbott" was born "Charles Price Abbott" and appears to have been in ASC as "Charles Price Abbott"

He landed in France on 18 Aug 1914 with ASC #M1/08562. So he must have been in the Army in one way or another prewar

He was born in Dublin and lived in Dublin pre-war

Yes I think so.  It just needs the seemingly conflicting commissioning details to be resolved.

Edited 6 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

3 minutes ago, corisande said:

So the first of @PRC's men is looking quite likely

"Charles Pryce Abbott" was born "Charles Price Abbott" and appears to have been in ASC as "Charles Price Abbott"

He landed in France on 18 Aug 1914 with ASC #M1/08562. So he must have been in the Army in one way or another prewar

He was born in Dublin and lived in Dublin pre-war

And if it is the same man, no ordinary Private. A Charles Pryce Abbott would received an OBE in 1962 for his work with the Bee Disease Advisory Committee https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/42683/supplement/4321/data.pdf

While a Charles Price Abbott was the 1947 author of "Queen Breeding for Amateurs" https://www.northernbeebooks.co.uk/product-category/c-p-abbott/

Both of which would seem to tie up with the obituary for the father.

The 1953 Who's Who in the Motor Industry adds:-Managing Director of Iron Bridge Service Depot, Ltd., Southall, Middlesex. Born Dublin, 8th July, 1893. Educated at Merchant Taylors School, Dublin and received technical training at Pembroke Technical School. Was a Driver-Mechanic of Commercial Vehicles prior to 1914 when he enlisted in the Army Service Corps. Served in France and was awarded the 1914 Star. Was commissioned in R.I. Rifles in 1918 and served in Palestine. Transferred to the Indian Army in 1919. Served during Afghan Campaign in Indian M.T. on the N.W. frontier. During Arab rising was workshops officer Armoured Cars in Iraq, 1920. Resigned Commission in 1921. Was for seven years a Building Surveyor and Sanitary Inspector until, in 1928, he founded the Iron Bridge Depot. Outside interests include Beekeeping, Photography and Cinematography. Has written a book on Queen-Bee Breeding, and combines his hobbies by making talking films about Bees. Private address: 111, Dormers Wells Lane, Southall, Middlesex. Telephone: 1349.  https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/1953_Who's_Who_in_the_Motor_Industry:_Persons_A

The death of a Charles Price Abbott, born 8th July 1893, was recorded in the Ealing District of Middlesex in Q2 1973. (1973 Probate Calendar gives the date as 16th June 1973).

Not spotting any Officers papers for him at the National Archive either.

Unfortunately probably not the right man - not only is the commissioning out by a year, but on the London Gazette entry for his commissioning, going back 2 pages shows he is on a list of cadets who were to be temporary 2nd Lieutenants in the Regular Forces.

Back to the drawing board,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

It’s the Territorial Force link that’s our (the) key to focus on.  We wouldn’t have that were it not an Irish Regiment.

Edited 6 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

I don't know enough about what is happening here. I agree that the commissioning is a year out - the photo is saying 1916 or earlier

But in  theory, could a Territorial Private have got a Regular commission

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, corisande said:

I don't know enough about what is happening here. I agree that the commissioning is a year out - the photo is saying 1916 or earlier

But in  theory, could a Territorial Private have got a Regular commission

Not sure what you mean, as only a fellow with a specifically Territorial Force commission would be required to wear T’s beneath his collar badges.

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, corisande said:

But in  theory, could a Territorial Private have got a Regular commission

In theory I presume it could happen, but my understanding is at that point he would be released from his enlistment and so no longer a member of the Territorial Force.

@FROGSMILE is there anything to be gained in this case by looking at the date the British Army moved from officer ranks on cuffs to officer ranks on shoulders and how quickly this was implemented for the cadets who were about to be commissioned and so being outfitted for the first time. I suspect the pictures in the OP might reflect generally how a newly minted 2nd Lieutenant might look in January 1916 but would it be true of December 1916? If not, when might the changeover have happened?

Thanks,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

In theory I presume it could happen, but my understanding is at that point he would be released from his enlistment and so no longer a member of the Territorial Force.

@FROGSMILE is there anything to be gained in this case by looking at the date the British Army moved from officer ranks on cuffs to officer ranks on shoulders and how quickly this was implemented for the cadets who were about to be commissioned and so being outfitted for the first time. I suspect the pictures in the OP might reflect generally how a newly minted 2nd Lieutenant might look in January 1916 but would it be true of December 1916? If not, when might the changeover have happened?

Thanks,
Peter

Peter, I understand your question.  If only things could be that straightforward.  Unfortunately the type of rank marking worn, was in effect optional.  Although battalions tried (naturally) to maintain a degree of uniformity, the attrition rate of company officers was so high that most officers’ messes displayed a real mixture by mid 1917, as many group photographs bear out.  From memory there was an official order approving shoulder rank formally (as an option) in I think late 1917.  It wasn’t until the 1920s that shoulder rank was finally laid down as the norm for all (it always had been (since SD introduction c1902) for the Guards and officers of General Rank). Ergo it’s at best a very imprecise guide to determine dates.

Edited 6 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[thedawnpatrol]

Thank you all, I'm humbled by your knowledge and amazed what you have unearthed in such a short time.

sorry to muddy the water, but here is a close up of the initials on the reverse 

as you can clearly see its C.F.A. 1916, and the photo was taken in Canterbury........

please carry on with your excellent work, it would be lovely to put a name to this Officer.

thank you

 

Julian

[FROGSMILE]

So five lines of inquiry within the sphere of the RIR entry of the army list 1916-1918:

1.  an officer with (ostensibly) the initials C.F.A.

2.  with a Territorial Force commission.

3. whose family came from the Canterbury area.

4.  Photo probably taken at the point of commissioning.

5.  Ergo TF Commissioning course probably 1916.

Edited 6 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Jimmy Taylor]

Liverpool Irish. Have a look at this photo

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/2219

Wikipedia for Liverpool Irish: 'Irish heritage was asserted in the traditions and uniform of the Liverpool Irish. Once adopting a uniform similar in appearance to the Royal Irish Rifles,'