Casualty AB64 Service and Pay Books

[AB64]

I collect AB64's (always on the look out for more if anyone has spares), mainly WW2 but I have a fair selection from WW1 including a few to men who were killed so I thought I'd show these - feel free to add any comments or observations - WW1 definitely isn't my area of expertise so I could be off the mark in places. The WW2 examples have a thread over on WW2talk if you want a look at them

First - Trumpeter Frank Swift 1023 then 780102 of 246 Brigade HQ, 49th Division RFA – he was Killed 10/10/18 by shelling at Neiville Sait Remy

 

Sergeant Peter Gauld R5750 born in Canada and a veteran of the South African War he was a member of 1st KRRC, 28/4/15  he was wounded in the right shoulder at Givenchy and Mentioned in Despatches – he was wounded again 9/2/16 with shrapnel in the left lung at Windy Corner he died of these wounds 9/3/16

Sergeant Edgar Malcolm Seager 9310 then 300066 while serving with 1/5th London Regiment he was killed near Beauraines

Private Arthur Binns 89422 then 61821 10th West Yorks killed 24/8/18 Thiepval Ridge

[AB64]

Corporal Christopher Edward Feldon 2762 then 370851 2/8th London Regiment (Post Office Rifles) killed 14/6/17 Hindenburg Line

Corporal Horace Edwin Tabrett 47204 59th Siege Battery RGA, awarded the MM (LG 11/3/19), he was killed 4/11/18

Private Charles Thomas Clayton 267171 10th Cheshires Killed between 27-30/5/18

Private John Clarke 23411 12th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, wounded late 1917 and early 1918 he passed away 20/11/18 at Oswestry Military Hospital, I'm not sure if from the earlier wound or a separate occurrence

[mark holden]

I also collect AB64 only Great War period thanks for sharing your some very interesting and poignant history with each one.

 

Regards

 

Mark

[AB64]

Hi Mark, Glad they are of interest - I think I'm about 165 WW1 British Army AB64's, as well as another 50 or so CEF, AIF and NZEF plus other named paperwork - its a lot easier to store and has a story to research than the bigger kit I started with

Alistair

[garycalvard]

Hello AB64,

This is a bit off topic but here are the medals to the Hutchinson brothers.  I have finally got around to doing some research because its Christmas.  Did you pick up any original paperwork with the original plaques please?

 

Gary

[Grovetown]

On 06/12/2021 at 23:27, mark holden said:

I also collect AB64 only Great War period thanks for sharing your some very interesting and poignant history with each one.

 

Regards

 

Mark

 I like Small Books and AB64s too, mostly because they were 'on the man'.

Small Books were ostensibly retained - from Jan 1915 - by the officer i/c records when on active service, while pay books were carried all the time. Pay books were not issued in peacetime, although units were supposed to maintain a stock for use in case of mobilization. (Thanks to Joe, as usual).

Indeed, I think it's highly arguable that AB64s are a more interesting collectable than medals because they were 'there'. Unlike medals which (excepting gallantry awards) weren't held by the recipient, if at all, until years after the war's end.

My favourite example belongs to a stretcher bearer in the 2/1st London Field Ambulance, 56th Division. Obviously he would have been put to (hard) work at Gommecourt on July 1st and the days thereafter, and I doubt it was a coincidence that his credit balance was totted up on June 30th.  His next pay day was July 12th.

By one of those amazing and happy coincidences, his 1917 pay book turned up at another dealer years after I bought the first and I was able to acquire it.

Cheers,

GT.

 

[Pete_C]

2 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 I like Small Books and AB64s too, mostly because they were 'on the man'.

Small Books were ostensibly retained - from Jan 1915 - by the officer i/c records when on active service, while pay books were carried all the time. Pay books were not issued in peacetime, although units were supposed to maintain a stock for use in case of mobilization. (Thanks to Joe, as usual).

Indeed, I think it's highly arguable that AB64s are a more interesting collectable than medals because they were 'there'. Unlike medals which (excepting gallantry awards) weren't held by the recipient, if at all, until years after the war's end.

My favourite example belongs to a stretcher bearer in the 2/1st London Field Ambulance, 56th Division. Obviously he would have been put to (hard) work at Gommecourt on July 1st and the days thereafter, and I doubt it was a coincidence that his credit balance was totted up on June 30th.  His next pay day was July 12th.

By one of those amazing and happy coincidences, his 1917 pay book turned up at another dealer years after I bought the first and I was able to acquire it.

Cheers,

GT.

 

Wow, what a powerful and evocative piece, I can see the attraction now, having never really given them a second thought.

I recall reading that the book was always to be carried in the right hand breast pocket when going into action, in the event that the owner became a casualty and it could be quickly retrieved. It brings to mind the well known photo of the dead British soldier, crouched in a trench at Guillemont (IWM Q 3964), his right breast pocket having been opened and his comb sticking out.

I imagine there’s also a wealth of potential research in the signatures of the authorising officers.

Thanks for sharing.

Pete

[Derek Black]

3 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 I like Small Books and AB64s too, mostly because they were 'on the man'.

Small Books were ostensibly retained - from Jan 1915 - by the officer i/c records when on active service, while pay books were carried all the time. Pay books were not issued in peacetime, although units were supposed to maintain a stock for use in case of mobilization. (Thanks to Joe, as usual).

Indeed, I think it's highly arguable that AB64s are a more interesting collectable than medals because they were 'there'. Unlike medals which (excepting gallantry awards) weren't held by the recipient, if at all, until years after the war's end.

You make a good point. I've always felt this way about medals too. It's struck me as odd that fatal casualties medals were the among the most valuable, when the soldier had never owned them in most cases.

There was a chat years ago on here about paybooks. There was a bit of a disagreement about whether soldiers carried them into action or not. I'd read many newspaper published letters saying a mans paybook was recovered from his body, this was however strenuously denied by a prominent forum member who said they would be collected at the HQ before attacks.

I've made up a spreadsheet of all the existing paybook Wills held by ScotlandsPeople.gov for the Black Watch.
There are a few in service records I've probably missed and the Irish archives will hold some too, but there's 1,886 Wills for the 8,211 foreign deaths commemorated on CWGC.
It's clear many were lost, with the men who carried them, in the mud of the battlefields.

Cheers,
Derek.

[Grovetown]

2 hours ago, Pete_C said:

I recall reading that the book was always to be carried in the right hand breast pocket when going into action...

Thanks. And that is where it was supposed to be kept officially.

1 hour ago, Derek Black said:

There was a chat years ago on here about paybooks. There was a bit of a disagreement about whether soldiers carried them into action or not. I'd read many newspaper published letters saying a mans paybook was recovered from his body, this was however strenuously denied by a prominent forum member who said they would be collected at the HQ before attacks.

Unfortunately some prominent - for which read dominant - members can be long on assertion and short on references. Apparently, while there was some withdrawing of pay books before action*, this seems to be a 'local' unit/ commander practice. In October 1916 a General Routine Order was issued expressly forbidding it,  and they were to be kept by/ on the men. If it was done subsequently, it was against orders.

Cheers,

GT.

*I wouldn't include trench raids in that, as all identification was removed for those IIRC.

[AB64]

Its the fact the books are directly related to an individual and were carried in action by them - (whether in attack or just while manning trenches etc) - that makes these so interesting, I started by collecting kit (again WW2 focused) but the collector focus was always on nice unissued stuff which had probably gone from factory to depot to surplus sale - similar with medals which in a lot of cases are basically post war items and as mentioned with casualties something the never actually saw. I should add though that its all about personal choice and if we all liked the same things it would be a boring (and more expensive) world. I also collect Soldiers Small Books and AB439 Officers Record of Service Books. As mentioned above there must be some interesting individuals in the signatures but with a lot being scribbled initials its hard to ID them, in Pte Clarke's book I could identify one officer casualty, my mate collects WW2 German Soldbuch and Wehrpass and has a massive database of signatures to help him understand the books and also to confirm entries are correct.

[mark holden]

Paybooks and identity discs (and bracelets) are a very rewarding area of collecting and research and like Grovetown I prefer carried or worn  by the soldier items to medals.    

[Derek Black]

On 29/12/2021 at 16:26, Grovetown said:

In October 1916 a General Routine Order was issued expressly forbidding it,  and they were to be kept by/ on the men. If it was done subsequently, it was against orders.

Ah, that's good to know.

Cheers,
Derek.

[lizbet]

Thank you, sharing to https://astreetnearyou.org/person/62967/Serjeant--Gauld  which in turn links with a range of other remembrance.

Regards Liz

 

[Dirty Harry]

I’ve never seen these before. Where on earth do you find them?

 

thanks

 

paul