Sgt. Thomas Trow, 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers, WIA June 1918

[LisaB]

I've found an ancestor on the Forces website, Sgt. Thomas Trow, Service Number: 200581, who was wounded in June 1918 . Here's the info they give:

T Trow

Incident Details: War Office Daily List No.5597 (https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194159366)

Report Date:20/06/1918

Rank:Sergeant

Service Number:200581

Wound Stripe:Entitled to wear a "Wound Stripe" as authorised under Army Order 204 of the 6th July 1916. The terms of this award being named on this list.

Casualty Listed As:Wounded

Next Of Kin Address:Huddersfield

Service:British Army

Primary Unit:2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers

Archive Reference: NLS 1918_WList47 (https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144770315)

 

I've pulled up the incident details and archive reference sites (links above) and cannot find his name on either of them. Can anyone help me figure out what I'm missing?

[ss002d6252]

He's on page 46

Use the 'complete book' option on the NLS to download the whole list and then search the pdf by service number.

Craig

[PRC]

2 hours ago, LisaB said:

I've found an ancestor on the Forces website, Sgt. Thomas Trow, Service Number: 200581, who was wounded in June 1918 .

This was just the date the list was published and can easily be anywhere between 4 and 10 weeks after the event, sometimes more.

Unfortunately I tend to find that website contains a great deal of mis-leading and inaccurate information. When combined with the low quality resolution of the casuality lists on the NLS it can be very easy to find you've been looking in the wrong place.

I'd normally take at look at what can be seen without a subscription on the likes of the FindMyPast site or the British Newspaper Archive, as sometimes names appear out of alphabetical order or have been mis-transcribed on Forces War Records. While FMP and BMA have problems of their own with the software used to turn images into text, they can often provide a helpful pointer. (A subscription access to either with give you a higher resolution image than whats available on the NLS website).

Image courtesy FindMyPast

With a few more names \ numbers to look for that in turn takes you to page 46 of the same weeks publication, more specifically the right hand column, just below about half-way down. My eyesight can barely make it out even when I've cropped it and tried to increase the contrast - the right hand edge being lost down the spine doesn't help either.

Image courtesy National Library of Scotland.

Page 46 is actually part of List 5598 which was published on the 21st June 1918.

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edit - or do what Craig suggests, much more elegant

 

[LisaB]

Thanks so much! That's very helpful. Is there any way to find out when/where he was wounded?

 

[PRC]

9 hours ago, LisaB said:

Thanks so much! That's very helpful. Is there any way to find out when/where he was wounded?

 

The Forces War Records information you've quoted shows him serving with the 2nd Battalion, Royal Scots Fusiliers, however as you can see this information did not come from the Daily Casualty List, so needs to be treated with caution.

His six digit service number starting 200xxx comes from the Territorial Force renumbering at the start of 1917 and the 2nd Battalion was Regular Army rather than Territorial Force. The number block 200001 to 240000 was allocated to the 4th Battalions of that Regiment - they were all Territorial Force. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

At the time of the renumbering the 1/4th would have been on the Egyptian \ Palestine border, (it moved to France in April 1918), the 2/4th were in Ireland and the 4th Reserve at Catterick in England. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-royal-scots-fusiliers-in-1914-1918/

As you've probably discovered Thomas service records appear to be among the majority of other ranks papers that went up in flames when German bombs in WW2 hit the London warehouse where they were being stored.

One possibility to confirm which unit(s) he served with overseas is the Service Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal. IF the clerk completing the roll followed standing instructions it should show all the units he served with overseas - but compliance varies enormously, (in somes regimental rolls it almost seems like page to page, probably reflecting different clerks approach to the task as the rolls often run to several thousand pages and won't all have been done by one person). Unfortunately they are only available on Ancestry - perhaps some kind soul on the forum could take a look and confirm the units shown.

His Medal Index Card only shows him qualifying for those two service medals, a combination which means he did not serve in a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916.

Alternatively you could try looking to see if any of the other Royal Scots Fusiliers on the daily list have surviving service records - not just the wounded but any other categories where it is a first appearance, i.e ignore any "previously reported" categories.

The same part of the daily list for the 21st June 1918 that includes the report of Thomas Trows' wounding lists 19 Royal Scots Fusiliers as killed in action and 1 died of wounds. As this was a list published by the relevant Royal Scots Fusiliers records office it cannot be assumed that they were all serving with the same battalion \ died on the same day. A check of the 19 against their Commonwealth War Graves commission website entries shows.

201787 Corporal H Bonar was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 28th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
15728 Private T Brown was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 29th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
5712 Private W. Cassidy was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 3rd May 1918. Body recovered from a battlefield burial post-war.
17010 Private J. Cavin was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 29th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
41619 Private S. Clugston was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 29th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
11065 Corporal E Griffen was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 29th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
41461 Lance Corporal G. Knox was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 29th April 1918. Body recovered from the battlefield post-war with Robertson.
41465 Private J. Lawson was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 28th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
32117 Private A. Mackenzie was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 30th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
201786 Corporal W. Milner was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 29th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
47567 Private S. Muir was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 30th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
30270 Lance Corporal H. Packer was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 29th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
41565 Private E. Richardson was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 4th May 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
41567 Private G. Robertson was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 29th April 1918. Body recovered from the battlefield post-war with Knox.
203254 Private J. Russell Body was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 29th April 1918. No known grave - Tyne Cot Memorial.
203110 Private W. Sibbald was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 27th April 1918. Body recovered from a battlefield burial post-war.
41418 Private H. Sloan was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 4th May 1918. Body recovered from a battlefield burial post-war along with Small.
41419 Private G. Small was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 4th May 1918. Body recovered from a battlefield burial post-war along with Sloan.
20003 Private W. Sword was serving with the 2nd Battalion when he died on the 26th April 1918. Buried Grootebeek British Cemetery, Belgium.

Unit War diaries can currently be downloaded from the UK National Archive for free. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one, even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" and follow the instructions - no financial details required. While it's unlikely to mention him by name it still might be worthwhile checking the 2nd Battalion War Diary just in case it helps confirm he was serving with them. The part covering April to August 1918 can be found in the National Archive catalogue here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352584

Hope that helps,
Peter

[Tom Lang]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

... - perhaps some kind soul on the forum could take a look and confirm the units shown.

His Medal Roll (snippet attached, courtesy of ancesty) confirms 2nd RSF.

Tom.

[Tom Lang]

The 2nd RSF War Diary for April, 1918, does not mention Sgt Trow by name.

The Battalion was involved in operations in the early part of the month, and on the last page for April, 1918, states:

"Total casualties up to morning & relief from front line 6 officers, 140 O.R.".

Tom.

[Tom Lang]

There is a family tree on ancestry for a Thomas Trow, born Nov/Dec, 1890, at Kilmaurs, Ayrshire, Scotland.

There is a photo of this Thomas Trow in military uniform, as a Sergeant, wearing a Glengary with the Cap Badge of what looks very like the RSF.

The tree shows that this Thomas Trow was married in Chelmsford, Essex, England, to Bertha Mear, in 1917.

The other information on the tree, states that he died on 8th March, 1924, as a result of a coal mine explosion in Castle Gate, Carbon, Utah, USA.

2 Uncles were also killed in the mine explosion.

Tom. 

[PRC]

14 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

His Medal Roll (snippet attached, courtesy of ancesty) confirms 2nd RSF.

Thank you for looking Tom - does that part of the medal roll seem complete? In other words does this page and the surrounding ones show some individuals serving with multiple units.

If it does look complete then the implication would be that Thomas Trow was either with one of the home service only Battalions or if he was a coalminer maybe even the Class W reserve at the time of the 1917 Territorial Force renumbering. Only subsequent to this did he go out as part of a draft, ending up with the 2nd Battalion.

14 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

The Battalion was involved in operations in the early part of the month, and on the last page for April, 1918, states:

"Total casualties up to morning & relief from front line 6 officers, 140 O.R.".

@LisaB

The 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers were transferred from the 30th Division to the 40th Division on the 7th April 1918 and then to the South African Brigade of the 9th (Scottish) Division on the 26th April 1918. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-royal-scots-fusiliers-in-1914-1918/

So the period in question seems to reflect their initial service with the South African Brigade. The Long Long Trail page for the 9th (Scottish) Division gives a reason for the South African Brigade to need the extra troops - On 24 April 1918, after suffering very heavy casualties, the 1st, 2nd and 4th SA Regiments were amalgamated, temporarily becoming the SA (Composite) Regiment. They were re-formed by 1 September 1918. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/9th-scottish-division/

From the same page it looks like the Division were involved at the 2nd Battle of Kemmel round about the time the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers joined them.

The Long, Long Trail page on The Battle of the Lys adds that the South African Brigade were also involved at the Battle of the Scherpenberg, 29 April 1918. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/the-battles-of-the-lys-1918/

A brief mention appears on Page 164 The Union of South Africa and the Great War 1914-1918 Official History by Defence HQ which cites the 2nd RSF as having suffered heavily on the 29th.

Image courtesy Google Books - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=thu-BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=South+Africans+Battle+of+the+Scherpenberg&source=bl&ots=8Esm-mWj_u&sig=ACfU3U1DEUQ6l3512eoCbXF1xFj4-JGUSQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwim_vzfgM_0AhWLfMAKHbqMAAQQ6AF6BAggEAM#v=onepage&q&f=false

Note some of those recovered from the battlefield postwar are now buried at La Clytte.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 6 December , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[LisaB]

Thank you all so much for the details I would not have been able to suss out. I was the one who entered all that info (and the photo) on Ancestry. As mentioned, he and two other relatives were killed in a mine explosion in 1924. Those two others were my great-grandfather and his brother. Thomas was their nephew, the son of their sister. I know a lot about him, outside of his war service. It's when we get into the nitty gritty military records that I get lost. Thank you again to all the experts who have helped clear the muddy waters.

[Tom Lang]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Thank you for looking Tom - does that part of the medal roll seem complete? In other words does this page and the surrounding ones show some individuals serving with multiple units.

If it does look complete then the implication would be that Thomas Trow was either with one of the home service only Battalions or if he was a coalminer maybe even the Class W reserve at the time of the 1917 Territorial Force renumbering. Only subsequent to this did he go out as part of a draft, ending up with the 2nd Battalion.

The best way to answer is to show you (courtesy of ancestry).

The 1st is the page before Thomas', then Thomas' page, then the page after.

Tom.

Edited 6 December , 2021 by Tom Lang
typo

[Tom Lang]

4 hours ago, LisaB said:

Thank you all so much for the details I would not have been able to suss out. I was the one who entered all that info (and the photo) on Ancestry. As mentioned, he and two other relatives were killed in a mine explosion in 1924. Those two others were my great-grandfather and his brother. Thomas was their nephew, the son of their sister. I know a lot about him, outside of his war service. It's when we get into the nitty gritty military records that I get lost. Thank you again to all the experts who have helped clear the muddy waters.

You're very welcome.

When I found the tree on ancestry, I did think of the possible coincidence, but you never know with ancestry and its questionable reputation.

Tom.

[Tom Lang]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

@LisaB

The 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers were transferred from the 30th Division to the 40th Division on the 7th April 1918 and then to the South African Brigade of the 9th (Scottish) Division on the 26th April 1918. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-royal-scots-fusiliers-in-1914-1918/

So the period in question seems to reflect their initial service with the South African Brigade. The Long Long Trail page for the 9th (Scottish) Division gives a reason for the South African Brigade to need the extra troops - On 24 April 1918, after suffering very heavy casualties, the 1st, 2nd and 4th SA Regiments were amalgamated, temporarily becoming the SA (Composite) Regiment. They were re-formed by 1 September 1918. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/9th-scottish-division/

From the same page it looks like the Division were involved at the 2nd Battle of Kemmel round about the time the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers joined them.

The Long, Long Trail page on The Battle of the Lys adds that the South African Brigade were also involved at the Battle of the Scherpenberg, 29 April 1918.

Note some of those recovered from the battlefield postwar are now buried at La Clytte.

Cheers,
Peter

Again it is best for the raw text to 'speak' for itself.

I am attaching snippets from my transcription of the 2nd RSF War Diary for April, 1918.

Tom.

[Tom Lang]

I was unable to decipher the signature on the last page.

So for your head-scratching and enjoyment, here's a snippet of the Lt Col's signature.

Tom.

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

The best way to answer is to show you (courtesy of ancestry).

The 1st is the page before Thomas', then Thomas' page, then the page after.

Thank you Tom for taking the time to post the Medal Roll extracts - certainly looks like the Rolls are reflecting all units served with overseas. The links of that number range with the 4th Battralions is fairly self evident and barring the odd clerical run in line with the previous four digits numbers, thus reflecting seniority. Its likely Thomas was therefore either serving with one of the two home service 4th Battalions in early 1917, on possibly on their establishment but sent home to continue working as a miner but liable to recall. As some point he ends up in a draft out to France and winds up with the 2nd Battalion, as do the next two entries..

200580 had previously been regimental number 8082 and 200587 had previously been 8100, so Sergeant Trows’ old number probably fell between 8083 and 8095. As CWGC has deaths recorded for 8084 and 8085 of the 1/4th Battalion, and there are MiCs for 8089 (200582) and a SWB MiC for 8091 John McDougall, 4th Royal Scots Fusiliers who enlisted 8th August 1914 it may be possible to refine that further.

2 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

I am attaching snippets from my transcription of the 2nd RSF War Diary for April, 1918.

Very much appreciated

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 6 December , 2021 by PRC
Posted information meant for another thread - Peters should not multi-task:-)

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

I was unable to decipher the signature on the last page.

So for your head-scratching and enjoyment, here's a snippet of the Lt Col's signature.

Tom.

If the British Army List for May 1918 is to be believed the commanding officer of the 2nd Battalion was Lieutenant-Colonel A.G.B. Smith, but that is clearly not the man who signed here. I then looked through the other senior officers of the Regular battalions and under Captains there is a J.E. Utterson-Kelso who is shown as an acting Lieutenant-Colonel and who is associated with the 2nd Battalion.

May 1918 British Army List Column 1095. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106292525

MiC here courtesy of a free account with Ancestry -

His Wikipedia page as John Edward Utterson-Kelso includes a picture of him as a Captain during the Great War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Utterson-Kelso

So he's my nomination as a match for the signature.

Cheers,
Peter

[Tom Lang]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

If the British Army List for May 1918 is to be believed the commanding officer of the 2nd Battalion was Lieutenant-Colonel A.G.B. Smith, but that is clearly not the man who signed here. I then looked through the other senior officers of the Regular battalions and under Captains there is a J.E. Utterson-Kelso who is shown as an acting Lieutenant-Colonel and who is associated with the 2nd Battalion.

May 1918 British Army List Column 1095. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106292525

MiC here courtesy of a free account with Ancestry -

His Wikipedia page as John Edward Utterson-Kelso includes a picture of him as a Captain during the Great War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Utterson-Kelso

So he's my nomination as a match for the signature.

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter, you initially had me looking at the RIR, but I sussed that, found the RSF in Col 1093, then found your correction.

The MIC shows that he started as 2/Lt, then Capt, then Acting Lt Col.

So thanks for you help.

Tom.