RMLI Battery 25

[Tom Wales]

I am trying to establish where and when this photograph was taken. Does anybody have any ideas - or maybe even know any of the men. I believe that it is a group from the Portsmouth Division RMLI and one of the individuals in the photo was in gunnery training or on HMS Hercules or at Rosyth between 1916 and 1919. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[RNCVR]

Hi Tom,

Cannot assist you in ID'ing  any of the men in the photo, but what I can tell you is the Sergeant seated front (blue uniform wearing Brodrick cap) is a Gunnery Instructor, he wears the RM equivalent of the RN Gunner's Mate rate badge above his Sergt's chevrons, & he wears on his left breast above his pocket what sure looks like the RN Good Shooting medal.

[KizmeRD]

There’s very little to go on in the picture other than the fact that the trainees are wearing 1905 pattern army caps with RMLI badge, so this must date the picture sometime during the period 1922-23. Probably taken in Forton Barracks, or perhaps at Eastney (Note that the instructor is wearing the older style Brodrick Cap). Perhaps one of the Forum’s uniform experts can enlighten us further?

MB

[Keith_history_buff]

I'm sure it came up before on the forum that the Service Dress cap was worn in France by the RMLI later during the war, which would tie in with the 1916 to 1919 date range. I did wonder if they were destined for imminent service elsewhere, but the instructor was not,

[KizmeRD]

Are you therefore perhaps suggesting machine gun ‘battery’ training prior to joining RND in France, rather than training prior to a Sea Service draft?

Did marines wear white tunics in Barracks during the war years?

I’m not yet convinced either way - but I would have expected a RMLI GI to have been displaying a few war medal ribbons, if it was in fact early twenties.

Do we know the name of the chap who served aboard HMS Hercules?

MB

Edited 5 December , 2021 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

In the Royal Marines Historical Society Special Publication 41 "Personal Distinctions - 350 Years of Royal Marines Uniforms and Insignia” it states: “Although a khaki Cap, Service Dress, Other Ranks, was introduced in the army in 1905, the Broderick remained in use in the Royal Marines until the 1923 [RMLI + RMA] amalgamation, however during WW1 Broderick caps were found to be impracticable and the Corps adopted the Cap, Service Dress for all ranks.”

I believe this applied, in particular, to men drafted to the BEF (RND, AA Bde, Howitzer Bde, etc) and to HQ barracks. I am, not so sure about men serving at sea.

W.r.t. to subject image, my best guess is that this is an RMLI group under training as gunners for sea service, the classes being called numbered ‘batteries’. I would expect Portsmouth RMLI men to move over to Eastney (the nearest RM gunnery school - the Sea Service Battery) for this training and the photo may have been taken there.

It is interesting that @RNCVRhas identified the RN Good Shooting Medal, in issue from 1903 to 1914, which was awarded for ship’s gunnery and not for musketry. It is unsurprising, therefore, that the class/battery Gunnery Instructor should hold that medal from a pre-war Fleet gunnery competition. I think this was not a machine gun class, nor are the men headed for the RND.

I confess that the white uniform jackets are a mystery in this context. Perhaps an 'under training' ID. This link is helpful https://rmhistorical.com/photo but it only includes another RMLI battery group/class (No.7) similarly dressed and possibly at the same location.

 

 

Edited 5 December , 2021 by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

36 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

It is interesting that @RNCVRhas identified the RN Good Shooting Medal, in issue from 1903 to 1914, which was awarded for ship’s gunnery and not for musketry. It is unsurprising, therefore, that the class/battery Gunnery Instructor should hold that medal from a pre-war Fleet gunnery competition. 

Thanks for your input which is invaluable, as usual.

I think I may be lucky enough to have one of those medals in my small collection of nautical bits and pieces (see below)…

MB

 

[Tom Wales]

Thanks all for contributions. The man concerned was Robert Atkinson 555/S Portsmouth Battalion and he did do gunnery training before joining HMS Hercules. The period of training occurred sometime between September and December 1916. His grandson has a small, thick, linen-bound book, very detailed, which was his gunnery training manual. The photo is from within the family but I was a bit thrown by what I assumed to be 'summer uniform'.

[horatio2]

@KizmeRDnice medal but a different one - a predecessor "Bluejacket medal" apparently - https://gmic.co.uk/topic/66264-bluejacket-medal-for-prize-firing-1903/ The ribbon colours are similar but blue for red and vv. I have not seen that before so thanks for posting.

See also - https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=145&lot_uid=168927

Edited 5 December , 2021 by horatio2

[58 Div Mule]

Thought these postcards may be of interest. Note the mix of Brodick Caps and SD Caps in Battery No 3.

The instructor has overseas service chevrons on his lower right arm in the first photo so no earlier than 1918.

58 DM.

[RNCVR]

 

It is interesting that @RNCVRhas identified the RN Good Shooting Medal, in issue from 1903 to 1914, which was awarded for ship’s gunnery and not for musketry. It is unsurprising, therefore, that the class/battery Gunnery Instructor should hold that medal from a pre-war Fleet gunnery competition. I think this was not a machine gun class, nor are the men headed for the RND.

 

The Naval Good Shooting medal was for shipboard gunnery, not musketry, It was an annual competition in the various classes of ships guns from 13.5" calibre to 3 pounder deck guns.

Photo attached of an Edwardian Good Shooting medal within his 1WW group. This medal was highly prized by gunnery ratings.

I have checked the Good Shooting roll & there was no Robert Atkinson  awarded the medal.

Edited 5 December , 2021 by RNCVR

[horatio2]

Great pictures/ The same class/battery gunnery instructor in both images. Interesting that in Battery No.3 he is wearing overseas chevrons but in Battery No.6 (presumably later) he is not. Also 100% Brodericks  and white trousers as well in Battery No.6 image.

[RNCVR]

Thanks DM for posting the RM gunnery photos, they are really nice!

[RNCVR]

@KizmeRDnice medal but a different one - a predecessor "Bluejacket medal" apparently.

Yes, that is correct Horatio. This medal is extremely rare especially with the top & middle ribbon clasps. It was an unofficial award, the prime mover of the medal being Admiral Percy Scott, the RN's foremost gunnery expert at the turn of the C period. Being unofficial it was not to be worn in uniform tho.

I have had three of these rare medals in my collection, however now sold & I have not retained any photos, but I will try to obtain a couple photos of the silver medal only awarded to the Captain of the Guns crew, the crew members received the medal in bronze as Kiz has posted images of.

Edited 5 December , 2021 by RNCVR

[58 Div Mule]

Po 555-S Pte Robert Atkinson’s ADM 159 (service record) is available online from the National Archive.

Passed his gunnery qualification in Dec 1916. Previous service with the RM in Gallipoli and France.

58 DM.

[Tom Wales]

4 minutes ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Po 555-S Pte Robert Atkinson’s ADM 159 (service record) is available online from the National Archive.

Passed his gunnery qualification in Dec 1916. Previous service with the RM in Gallipoli and France.

58 DM.

Thanks - that narrows down the timing. He was underage in Gallipoli and France and sent back to UK for sea training.

[horatio2]

2 minutes ago, Tom Wales said:

He was underage in Gallipoli and France 

He was not underage according to his ledger record, which gives his d.o.b. as 24 Jan 1895. So, he was 20 onarrival at Gallipoli and 21 on arrival in the BEF. An RMLI draft from the RND to sea service was not unusual.

His attestation and other papers are at Kew - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14504140  This shows he attested aged 19.

[Tom Wales]

He was actually only 15 when he signed up - so seems like a 'blind eye' was turned.

[horatio2]

4 minutes ago, Tom Wales said:

so seems like a 'blind eye' was turned.

Not necessarily. Do not blame the recruiters if he looked nineteen. Recruits were not required to 'prove' their age and he was over 5ft 9ins tall. More a case of his being a convincing liar.

[58 Div Mule]

27 minutes ago, Tom Wales said:

so seems like a 'blind eye' was turned.

No mention of his being ‘under age’ on his ADM159. This would have been an important annotation for calculation of any future pension. So it seems he served throughout with his stated d.o.b. (1895) having been accepted.

He enlisted in 1914 and served at Gallipoli and in France. I’ve researched a number of men who we’re drafted away from the RM Battalions to sea service. I wonder if they were regarded as ‘having done their bit’?

In any case, a courageous young man who appears to have been wounded on 1 May 1915.

58 DM.

[Tom Wales]

1 minute ago, 58 Div Mule said:

No mention of his being ‘under age’ on his ADM159. This would have been an important annotation for calculation of any future pension. So it seems he served throughout with his stated d.o.b. (1895) having been accepted.

He enlisted in 1914 and served at Gallipoli and in France. I’ve researched a number of men who we’re drafted away from the RM Battalions to sea service. I wonder if they were regarded as ‘having done their bit’?

In any case, a courageous young man who appears to have been wounded on 1 May 1915.

58 DM.

You are right - his true age was discovered when he arrived in France. He did receive a head wound shortly after landing in Gallipoli but stayed until the evacuation and carried a piece of shrapnel visible in his forehead for the rest of his life.

[horatio2]

Do you have documentation for this "discovery" that he was only seventeen  on arrival in the BEF.? It would be good to know who found his true age and how. What was his true d.o.b.?

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

I have checked the Good Shooting roll & there was no Robert Atkinson  awarded the medal.

The medal had been discontinued in1914, long before he was drafted to sea in late 1916..

[RNCVR]

50 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

The medal had been discontinued in1914, long before he was drafted to sea in late 1916..

If he is not wearing the ribbon of either the Bluejacket Shooting medal or the Naval Good Shooting medal, I dont know what the ribbon he is wearing.

If this photo is post war he certainly should be wearing at least a BWM ribbon. A men of his experience surely would have ben recalled during 1WW possibly as a shore based Instructor.

[horatio2]

4 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

If he is not wearing the ribbon of either the Bluejacket Shooting medal or the Naval Good Shooting medal, I dont know what the ribbon he is wearing.

@RNCVRI think you are confusing the (un-named) gunnery istructor with the (unidentified in the image) Pte Robert Atkinson RMLI. The former is probably wearing the pre-war Good Shooting medal as you suggested. Atkinson could not be eligible.