charlie962 Posted 30 August , 2018 Share Posted 30 August , 2018 (edited) Having just looked again at Kastamuni to Kedos (written by many hands but edited by CL Woolley) I note the following: Kastamuni (1916) "..latter part of September..cold snap..four officers from HMY Zaida arrived one of whom, Commander Crabtree, died the same evening from the hardship of his trek." In the appendix there is a nominal roll and the following were taken 17/8/16 Woolley Capt CL, RFA, taken Ayas 17/8/16 Nicholson Lieut S, RN, HMY Zaida, ditto Dunlop AsstPaymstr HW, RNR, ditto ditto Crabtree Cmdr S, RN ditto ditto Looking at other sources: Nicholson is Sidney Nicholson Dunlop is Hugh Wallace Dunlop Crabtree is Samuel Robson Crabtree. Woolley does not provide any info on his own capture. There is a file in FO383 which I know at least one other forum member requested a few years back. The Officer Cas List was this The Ratings: There will have been others because FO383 talks about the 19 survivors. I have put the above info so it is easily found. Question: If Wooley was apparently responsible for a group of 'spy ships' and was travelling with his paymaster, what was he up to ? Charlie Edited 30 August , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 30 August , 2018 Share Posted 30 August , 2018 This seems to be the ICRC list R50070 for the Ratings here is a sample card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 30 August , 2018 Share Posted 30 August , 2018 A search of CWGC gives 13 names died 17/8/16 and four more that died subsequently in captivity. Question: If Woolley was apparently responsible for a group of 'spy ships' and was travelling with his paymaster, what was he up to ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 August , 2018 Share Posted 31 August , 2018 Here's an interesting snippet from : The Woman Who Fought an Empire: Sarah Aaronsohn and Her Nili Spy Ring by Gregory J. Wallance Some holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 August , 2018 Share Posted 31 August , 2018 (edited) Another little snippet, this time from The Spectator 19/5/1990 Spying out the past Sara Paton WOOLLEY OF UR: THE LIFE OF SIR LEONARD WOOLLEY by H. V. F. Winstone When war broke out Woolley was sent to Egypt as intelligence officer at Port Said, running agents on the Syrian coast from a motley collection of small ships, ranging from Lord Rosebery's yacht, the Zaida, to a lateen-rigged Turkish schooner; in order to pass unnoticed in those waters the crews were got up as pirates. The Royal Navy did not countenance this disreputable squadron but Woolley could deal with superiority. Fond of music, he trained one crew up as a band; they sailed out of Port Said harbour past a naval vessel idle since the beginning of the war playing 'Keep the Home Fires Burning'. Captured in 1916, he was imprisoned in Turkey; fellow prisoners included ex- hausted survivors from the tragic siege of Kut. Spirited efforts were made to cheer things up, and Woolley was good at standing up to the Turkish commandants. Charlie Edited 31 August , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 August , 2018 Share Posted 31 August , 2018 (edited) Another snippet, this time from : British Military Intelligence in the Palestine Campaign, 1914-1918 De Yigal Sheffy 'his autobiography' which book would that be ? Charlie Edited 31 August , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJS Posted 31 August , 2018 Share Posted 31 August , 2018 Looks like you find the right book. 21 references to Woolley in it. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 August , 2018 Share Posted 31 August , 2018 Sheffy seems to be quoted by others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 August , 2018 Share Posted 31 August , 2018 Here is a google translation of a 2017 article in Turkish "BirGun" In the Gulf of Iskenderun, there were 2 sunken vessels dating from World War I. The shipwrecks were discovered during the training and research work done by the Vocational School of Maritime Vocational School in Iskenderun Technical University, Faculty of Marine Sciences and Technology. Necdet Uygur, a professor at the Department of Marine Sciences and Technology and Maritime Vocational School, said that the wrecks were the "HMY Zaida" yacht and French minesweeper "Pavot" used by the British for observation and intelligence, and imaging and research studies on the wrecks continued. İSTE 1 research vessel and 3 delegation during the application dives and 15 students with some of the wrecks in the bay indicating that they came to Uyghur, "There were some findings in them. They were charred ships. We saw ball wounds on Pavot. This confirms that it is a military ship. We went inside the boats to do further research with our students and were able to see them. 'Zaida' was a ship that did more work in the First World War, and 'Pavot' was a ship that cut off vaulted mines left in the sea. These are said to have been sunk by German submarines in other sources, although some sources say that they were sunk by Turkish artillery batteries during the studies in the Iskenderun Bay ". He said that the vessels were located in the openings of the Gulf of Iskenderun and one of them was close to the Yumurtalik coasts. He stated that there were 10 nautical miles between the two ships. Uyghur said, "The British Zaida 350 GRT Steam Trap was a masted yacht, 50 meters wide and 8 meters wide and belonged to the royal yacht. At 22 meters in the wreck, the local fishermen are lying on the bottom with their poles cut off. The French mine survey ship is 30 m deep, one piece embedded in the rear but it stands in one piece. Boy is 34 meters wide and 6.5 meters long, "he said. Uighur, Ministry of Culture and Tourism will receive support and permissions with experts and more detailed and accurate information will be taken said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 August , 2018 Share Posted 31 August , 2018 (edited) On 03/05/2006 at 21:21, Guest rob spence said: In 1996 I led a party of divers to Yumurtalik to locate the wreck and possible graves ashore...if any one is interested I may be able to add some answers to any questions you may have. Cheers Rob Spence Did anyone ever contact Rob Spence ? Edit- Wouldn't the wreck be classed as a war grave ? Edited 1 September , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 1 September , 2018 Share Posted 1 September , 2018 (edited) Just to summarise: It appears that HMY ZAIDA was not sunk by a submarine nor by Turkish artillery but by a French mine. I set out below the crew names I've come across and the source (R50070 etc = ICRC) because I didn't come across a similar listing elsewhere although I'm sure the work has been done before. In the interests of rememberance I thought it worth putting them in one place where a google search should find them ? If anyone has any additional names, please let me know. It is not hard to find additional info on each man, eg RNR or RN Service records- although the RN ones I've looked at don't mention Zaida and the RNR ones are payable at NA. There are also mentions on local memorial write-ups etc although many still refer to submarine attack. Charlie 32 Names of which 13 died when the ship exploded and 5 died in subsequent captivity. Index- (for Google) ZAIDA ASHCROFT Albert Robert BELLASSIS Eric M BURNLEY SAMUEL CAWTE WILLIAM GEORGE CLAXTON CHARLES CLAXTON CLEAVE James Fred CRABTREE CRABTREE Samuel R CRABTREE Samuel Robson DIXON FREDERICK DUNLOP Hugh W DUNLOP Hugh Wallace DUNLOP Hugh EVANS T Pierce EVANS Thomas Pirece FLOWER ARTHUR E. FLOWER Arthur Ernest GRIFFITHS EDWIN GRIFFITHS Edwin HALL Ernest HALL HARRAD ROBERT ARTHUR HARRAD Robert Arthur HEARD Edgar HEARD JOHNSTON EDWARD CECIL LAMONT GEORGE ERNEST LANDLES Stephen LANDLES MacCASKILL Norman McASKILL MYALL MYALL Albert Lawrence MYALL WILLIAM NICHOLSON Sidney NICHOLSON NOBLE JAMES DUNN NOBLE POULTER James William POULTER QUELCH Frank REYNOLDS Thomas ROYLE WILLIAM THOMAS SPENCE SAMUEL GEORGE STODDART SPENCE STONE FREDERICK WILLIAM STONE Frederick W THIRLWELL ROBERT THIRWELL Robert WILSON WILSON William Brewin WILSON WOOLLEY Charles Leonard Edited 2 September , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 September , 2018 Share Posted 2 September , 2018 Came across this bit about Commander Crabtree's death in captiviry. From H Bishop's A Kut Prisoner. Clearly those at Kastamuni knew that Zaida was sunk by a mine. Perhaps not that it was French ? Strangely his name doesn't come up on Lives of the First World War although it does on CWGC Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 2 September , 2018 Admin Share Posted 2 September , 2018 48 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Strangely his name doesn't come up on Lives of the First World War although it does on CWGC Charlie I have seen a pattern where if an Officer's medals went unclaimed there would be no record for LOFWW to upload, so the officer was "missed". Not sure if it would be the same for naval types but a possible explanation? It is likely they will include him if you get in touch with them especially considering the evidence above. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 September , 2018 Share Posted 2 September , 2018 I suspect several RNR men are not on Lives. I couldn't see Dunlop or Nicholson. I was thinking of creating a community. For Wooley there are duplicate records and I suspect 'merges' are no longer being done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 September , 2018 Share Posted 2 September , 2018 On 31/08/2018 at 14:38, charlie962 said: 'his autobiography' which book would that be ? I have answered my own question. This published c1962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 12 September , 2018 Share Posted 12 September , 2018 In the above book Woolley tells a couple of good stories about the Zaida. Note: the cook was Frazer Reynolds who survived the war, the captain was Cdr Crabtree RN who died as a PoW and the First Officer was presumably Lieut Edwin Griffiths RNR, the former Master of Zaida in civil days, who actually died that day. Stoker Johnston is probably not his correct name?An easier name for the story ? 3rd Engineer Johnston died that day. It is possible that it is one of three stokers who did become PoWs but I cannot guess which. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 14 September , 2018 Share Posted 14 September , 2018 (edited) Just a note that I have put all 32 names into a Community called HM Yacht Zaida on Lives of the First World War I have a fair bit of additional info on each man that I have not yet loaded or connected to the Life but will do so shortly. Edited 14 September , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMac2916 Posted 13 October , 2020 Share Posted 13 October , 2020 I realise this is a very old post, started originally in March 2005. But did any have or has contact with the guest Rob Spence? Who posted on 3rd May 2006 that his grandfather Samuel GS Spence died on the Zaida. Samuel GS Spence is my great grandfather and so I’m keen to get in touch with Rob if anyone has any contact details for him, I realise that the original post was over 14 years ago, but there was some activity on this thread in 2018. Hopefully Rob may still be active/watching or still reesearching topics for HMY Zaida. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 14 October , 2020 Share Posted 14 October , 2020 15 hours ago, DaveMac2916 said: But did any have or has contact with the guest Rob Spence? I never heard from him sadly. In fact I didn't get much of a response on all that I added to this thread but I would be very interested to hear more detail on Zaida and the men who served on her. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMac2916 Posted 14 October , 2020 Share Posted 14 October , 2020 Well if Samuel GS Spence was his grandfather and is my great grandfather, then Rob must be at least 20 years older than me, I'm 57 now, so he must be in his late 70s, he may well have passed away. If I ever end up contacting him I'll get him to update this post or if I find out more detail on HMY Zadia I'll up date the post myself. Thanks for the reply :-) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 14 October , 2020 Share Posted 14 October , 2020 4 hours ago, DaveMac2916 said: If I ever end up contacting him I I remember now that a couple of years ago I did contact an Adam Spence (via Ancestry) who was a distant cousin of Rob Spence. He had had no luck in making contact either. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Cawte Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 On 14/09/2018 at 21:25, charlie962 said: Just a note that I have put all 32 names into a Community called HM Yacht Zaida on Lives of the First World War I have a fair bit of additional info on each man that I have not yet loaded or connected to the Life but will do so shortly. Thanks charlie962. I've just joined the chat owing to your extensive research. My great grandfather was William George Cawte, a crew member of Zaida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Terry Cawte said: My great grandfather was William George Cawte, a crew member of Zaida. Welcome to the Forum, Terry. I will look at my notes to see if I have anything extra to add about your GGF. I note I have him listed as an Able Seamen of the MMR who died on the day Zaida struck the mine. Do you have any stories ? Did any of the survivors contact your GGF's family ? Do you have a picture of him ? My limited 'extensive' research means that I have not seen the file I referenced above which is held at the National Archives at Kew. part of this file ref FO 383/236 I would love to know what it tells us. Charlie Edit: I note he had an entry in National Roll of the Great War, (a commercial production) W. G CAWTE He volunteered in August 1915, and served on the " Ursula " and " Zaida " with the Yacht Patrol. He was engaged on various duties in many waters, and was killed in action, off Alexandria, whilst on board the " Zaida " on August 17th, 1916. He was entitled to the Mercantile Marine War Medal and the General Service Medal. 7, Wilton Street, Southampton.Source: National Roll of the Great War 1914-1918 Edited 23 October , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Cawte Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 1 hour ago, charlie962 said: Welcome to the Forum, Terry. I will look at my notes to see if I have anything extra to add about your GGF. I note I have him listed as an Able Seamen of the MMR who died on the day Zaida struck the mine. Do you have any stories ? Did any of the survivors contact your GGF's family ? Do you have a picture of him ? My limited 'extensive' research means that I have not seen the file I referenced above which is held at the National Archives at Kew. part of this file ref FO 383/236 I would love to know what it tells us. Charlie Edit: I note he had an entry in National Roll of the Great War, (a commercial production) W. G CAWTE He volunteered in August 1915, and served on the " Ursula " and " Zaida " with the Yacht Patrol. He was engaged on various duties in many waters, and was killed in action, off Alexandria, whilst on board the " Zaida " on August 17th, 1916. He was entitled to the Mercantile Marine War Medal and the General Service Medal. 7, Wilton Street, Southampton.Source: National Roll of the Great War 1914-1918 Sorry Charlie, I meant to have said that William was my great uncle, brother of my grandfather, Harry Cawte. I know I have a photo of William. I'll dig it out and post. William was one of seven children. The four sons (William, Harry, Charles and James) all served in WW1. William and James were both killed in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 October , 2020 Share Posted 24 October , 2020 12 hours ago, Terry Cawte said: Sorry Charlie, I meant to have said that William was my great uncle, Understood. When looking at family trees on Ancestry a couple of years ago I noted that there were 2 William Cawtes born 1879 who had Marine service in WW1. I also saw that some trees were incorrect in tracking which William Cawte was theirs. I say this just to make sure you are clear that your GU was Willaim George Cawte born 14 December 1879 Portsea and not William Cawte born 3 March 1879 Fareham ! The latter was a Naval Petty Officer and survived the war (and has a surviving service record). For Zaida I have William George Cawte, born 14/12/1879 to William and Eliza of 61 Albion St Portsea. Baptised Feb 1880. Married Mary Jane Phillips 2/3/1901. The 1891 Census for 61 Albion St shows 2 other sons, Albert and James I note that the National Roll extract I copied above mentions he also served on the Yacht Ursula. I have not tried to research that boat. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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