British Gas Troops Insignia?

[Guinness]

Were BEF troops, specifically trained in offensive/defensive chemical warfare awarded any sort of special insignia?  I seem to recall reading a quote in Holmes' Tommy about a NCO and his wearing of special tabs on his epaulettes denoting him as the Battalion gas NCO.  Anyone able to add anything definitive?

Cheers,

D.B. Trussell

[FROGSMILE]

18 hours ago, Guinness said:

Were BEF troops, specifically trained in offensive/defensive chemical warfare awarded any sort of special insignia?  I seem to recall reading a quote in Holmes' Tommy about a NCO and his wearing of special tabs on his epaulettes denoting him as the Battalion gas NCO.  Anyone able to add anything definitive?

Cheers,

D.B. Trussell

They were under the auspices of the Corps of Royal Engineers, whose men wore the insignia of that corps.  As regards the special units that you refer to, have you checked out this long running thread that might well have covered the information you seek? - https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/547-royal-engineers-special-brigade/page/47/#comment-3071458

 

Edited 1 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Guinness]

Thanks so much for the link - some fascinating information to be discovered there, which answered my question to a certain degree.  What I was thinking in terms of, however, was not so much in terms of men specifically assigned to the "Special Brigade", as those men who were provided with training and returned to their respective unit to then teach/maintain defensive gas standards.  Going back through Tommy, I found the quote I referenced above, "My khaki uniform was stained and worn, but my belt shone, my buttons gleamed, and my khaki tunic bore the colorful insignia of my regiment, brigade and division. On my epaulettes I wore the green and black tabs of battalion gas NCO  with the brass fusilier bomb and the brass letters LF [Lancaster Fusiliers]."  

Has anyone ever encountered such insignia before, or was it possible this was something specific to his regiment?

D.B. Trussell

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, Guinness said:

Thanks so much for the link - some fascinating information to be discovered there, which answered my question to a certain degree.  What I was thinking in terms of, however, was not so much in terms of men specifically assigned to the "Special Brigade", as those men who were provided with training and returned to their respective unit to then teach/maintain defensive gas standards.  Going back through Tommy, I found the quote I referenced above, "My khaki uniform was stained and worn, but my belt shone, my buttons gleamed, and my khaki tunic bore the colorful insignia of my regiment, brigade and division. On my epaulettes I wore the green and black tabs of battalion gas NCO  with the brass fusilier bomb and the brass letters LF [Lancaster Fusiliers]."  

Has anyone ever encountered such insignia before, or was it possible this was something specific to his regiment?

D.B. Trussell

Thank you for your very interesting reply.  My personal belief (knowing the Army) is that the green and black flash would have been a universal thing for battalions within that Division and not purely a battalion feature.  It might well have been something directed by even higher formation, such as the Army within which the Division was a constituent part.  It’s an interesting aspect that warrants more research.  The principle of coloured flashes to distinguish functional roles is a very longstanding one and it’s possible that the distinction was universally decreed.

Edited 1 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

In the book, A Fox Under My Cloak, by Henry Williamson, the central character is in charge of gas in his battalion before the assault at Loos. . He wears a brassard of red, white and green vertical stripes on his cuff. Although the book is fiction, albeit semi autobiography,Williamson describes the REs running the gas course.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

In the book, A Fox Under My Cloak, by Henry Williamson, the central character is in charge of gas in his battalion before the assault at Loos. . He wears a brassard of red, white and green vertical stripes on his cuff. Although the book is fiction, albeit semi autobiography,Williamson describes the REs running the gas course.

Thank you Michelle.  It’s interesting as it was a new technology and the Army was evolving it’s policies and procedures.  One would think instinctively that a common coloured flash would be agreed at Army level, but it might be that initially there was some variance between formations (Divisions, Corps, etc.).  More to discover methinks.

Edited 1 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ypres1915]

Hi,

I think this is what you may be after. Here is a brassard from a 15th battalion CEF gas NCO. Attended a gas course in 1916 and 1917 .... ironically admitted to hospital after being gassed in 1918.

Ypres 1915

Edited 1 December , 2021 by Ypres1915

[Guinness]

I had read in Richter's Chemical Soldiers about the red, white and green brassards worn by the Special Battalion.  The green & black brassard being worn by by a Canadian certainly backs-up the notion of other battalions sporting green & black slides to their epaulettes.  Thank you very much for the information.  It's very-much appreciated.

D.B. Trussell 

[Mike_H]

Here is an example of the red, green and white brassard.

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant work Ypres1915 and Mike_H, thank you for posting such useful and important information and images.  The forum at its best.

Edited 1 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Terry_Reeves]

The red green and white brassard was introduced by Lt Col (later Maj General) C H. Foulkes who was given the task of founding the Special Companies which became the Special Brigade in early 1916. Foulkes chose the colours because they were the colours of the Italian flag and they celebrated Italy  joining the allied cause on 23 May 1915. The their use did not last long and you will be pushed to find very many photographs of men wearing them.

TR

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Terry_Reeves said:

The red green and white brassard was introduced by Lt Col (later Maj General) C H. Foulkes who was given the task of founding the Special Companies which became the Special Brigade in early 1916. Foulkes chose the colours because they were the colours of the Italian flag and they celebrated Italy  joining the allied cause on 23 May 1915. The their use did not last long and you will be pushed to find very many photographs of men wearing them.

TR

 

 

An interesting origin Terry.  Learned a lot in this thread.  Thank you for posting.  So far it seems as if perhaps staff officers wore the tricolour brassard.  And specialist NCOs in the infantry battalions a green and black shoulder flash.  Does that seem about right?

Edited 2 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ypres1915]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

An interesting origin Terry.  Learned a lot in this thread.  Thank you for posting.  So far it seems as if perhaps staff officers wore the tricolour brassard.  And specialist NCOs in the infantry battalions a green and black shoulder flash.  Does that seem about right?

I believe the tricolour was worn by the RE Special troops and the green and black by battalion gas NCO's.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Ypres1915 said:

I believe the tricolour was worn by the RE Special troops and the green and black by battalion gas NCO's.

Thank you.  I can imagine the officers wearing brassards as they were common in HQs, but ostensibly (and I don’t doubt you for one moment) it seems very unwieldy and likely to be unpopular for sappers and pioneers to wear brassards.  They (brassards) don’t sit well in an environment with lots of physical work.  It will be interesting to see if any photos can be found of them in use.

 

Edited 2 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ypres1915]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It will be interesting to see if any photos can be found of them in use.

Here is a still from an IWM video on 'Shell Shock" The soldier on the left of the frame seems to be wearing the "Special Troops" brassard. 

Firsts of World War One - Innovations of WW1 | Imperial War Museums (iwm.org.uk)

Also, included is a transcribed section of "J Company Special Brigade's" War Diary describing the wearing of the brassard by guides.

 

Edited 2 December , 2021 by Ypres1915

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Ypres1915 said:

Here is a still from an IWM video on 'Shell Shock" The soldier on the left of the frame seems to be wearing the "Special Troops" brassard. 

Firsts of World War One - Innovations of WW1 | Imperial War Museums (iwm.org.uk)

Also, included is a transcribed section of "J Company Special Brigade's" War Diary describing the wearing of the brassard by guides.

 

That’s brilliant, and conclusive evidence that the brassards were certainly worn by soldiers for a period at the very least.  Thank you for taking the trouble to search that detail out.

NB.  It seems odd that not all the soldiers in the photo are wearing them, but just the fellow on the left as we look.  It seems to chime with the suggestion that just guides wore them.  What do you think?

Edited 2 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ypres1915]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

NB.  It seems odd that not all the soldiers in the photo are wearing them, but just the fellow on the left as we look.  It seems to chime with the suggestion that just guides wore them.  What do you think?

I think the film was taken at a casualty clearing station .... perhaps he was slightly wounded and seperated from his unit. I agree the brassard was an identification for other units that interacted with the "special brigade" which made the idea of identifying a contact or a guide an effective way to transfer supplies or equipment. Simple but efficient.....  Reading the war diary also makes it sound as if the brassards were sparingly used by certain troops that were intereacting with other units. The war diary describes 8 parties of 50 men (infantry) carring the projectors for the special brigade. It seems likely there may have been one guide per party so 8 brassards???

Edited 3 December , 2021 by Ypres1915

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Ypres1915 said:

I think the film was taken at a casualty clearing station .... perhaps he was slightly wounded and seperated from his unit. I agree the brassard was an identification for other units that interacted with the "special brigade" which made the idea of identifying a contact or a guide an effective way to transfer supplies or equipment. Simple but efficient.....  Reading the war diary also makes it sound as if the brassards were sparingly used by certain troops that were intereacting with other units.

Yes I agree that seems to be the general impression and as you say it suggests a simple and efficient policy.  It also chimes with my own experience of the use of armlets and shoulder flashes as forms of instantly identifiable indicators of function. 

[Ypres1915]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I agree that seems to be the general impression and as you say it suggests a simple and efficient policy.  It also chimes with my own experience of the use of armlets and shoulder flashes as forms of instantly identifiable indicators of function. 

The discussion back and forth has led me to an idea ..... it seems to me the "Special Brigade" seems to be offensive troops while the "Battalion Gas NCO's" seem to be defensive. Their functions would make the wearing of two different brassards logical. 

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Ypres1915 said:

The discussion back and forth has led me to an idea ..... it seems to me the "Special Brigade" seems to be offensive troops while the "Battalion Gas NCO's" seem to be defensive. Their functions would make the wearing of two different brassards logical. 

Yes, I think that very likely too, it would be a logical way to distinguish their respective roles. 

Edited 3 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE