Help with identifying cap badge please

[RosBrownlee]

I'd be very grateful if anyone could make out the cap badge on this photo of my great uncle, private Stephen Chapman. Judging from his (rather hard to read) war records it might be London, Middlesex or territorials. I'm afraid I can't get a higher resolution photo than this.

Also, as he has four stripes on his cuff, does this mean the photo would have been taken at the end of the war? Thank you in advance, RosBrownlee

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum Ros. He’s badged to the Royal Artillery. He’s wearing  4 overseas service chevrons, possibly another at the bottom, which is a different colour, but not terribly easy to discern. He’s also wearing an officers tunic and Sam Browne belt, and what looks like a Military Medal ribbon. Do you know whether he was commissioned?
Michelle 

[AOK4]

Hello, it's a Royal Artillery cap badge.

[RosBrownlee]

Thank you both very much. That's odd because it was his brother (my grandfather) who was in the Royal Artillery and commissioned, while Stephen stayed a private and because of his health was transferred to the territorials half way through the war. A mystery - I'm guessing he borrowed the uniform!

Ros

[Michelle Young]

Can you post a copy of his war records please, and information like date and place of birth, parents. This will help the forum sleuths! 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

9 minutes ago, RosBrownlee said:

That's odd because it was his brother (my grandfather) who was in the Royal Artillery and commissioned, while Stephen stayed a private

Although I'm not sure if it was illegal to wear a military uniform to which he was not entitled, it was certainly not the done thing, or particularly common.

I would suggest it is far more likely than not, that the man in the photo is actually a genuine RA officer.

Do you have a photo of your grandfather that you could post for comparison?

[mancpal]

Ros,

could this be your grandfather that is shown in correct uniform rather than his brothers borrowed uniform? Did your grandad win an MM as I agree with Michelle about his first ribbon. With the overseas service chevrons I suspect the second ribbon could be that of a ‘14 or ‘14-15 star dating the photo to late or perhaps immediately after the war.

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

On 30/11/2021 at 13:43, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Although I'm not sure if it was illegal to wear a military uniform to which he was not entitled, it was certainly not the done thing, or particularly common.

I would suggest it is far more likely than not, that the man in the photo is actually a genuine RA officer.

Do you have a photo of your grandfather that you could post for comparison?

It was illegal Dai, but not usually prosecuted outside of wartime, and with a rationale dating back to endemic levels of desertion. I agree that it’s almost certain the subject is a genuine RA officer.

Edited 14 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[RosBrownlee]

Thank you all for your helpful thoughts. Here are Stephen's records and I'll send a photo of my grandfather Philip in a minute.

[FROGSMILE]

The history of his enlistment is clear from that Service record:

1.  Initially enlisted with the ‘Second Line’ (those volunteered for home defence only) of the 15th London Regiment (Civil Service Rifles) Territorial Force (pre war, citizen soldier auxiliary units).  The ‘First Line’ contained volunteers for ‘imperial service’ and so deployed overseas (to France).

2.  Transferred to the 105th ‘Provisional’ (meaning under construction and training with a view to full operational service) Battalion. This would have been after conscription was introduced during 1916.

3.  Swept up into the 52nd Graduated Battalion of the ‘Training Reserve’ after the latter was created to bring better coherence to the training base (infrastructure and process) in Britain. This particular unit was linked with the Middlesex Regiment and would have worn its insignia.
See: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/?s=Training+Reserve+
 
NB. In the Civil Service Rifles he would have worn the regimental cap badge (Prince of Wales’s feathers in black), but after leaving it and entering a Provisional Battalion, Training Reserve, he would have worn a simple, brass general service button on a circle of red cloth on his cap, and the letters TR on his shoulder strap (see photo). Finally, he would have worn Middlesex Regiment insignia with the 52nd Battalion.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RosBrownlee]

Here are photos of my grandfather Philip and his medals. They look like brothers to me but I may be wrong.

I'm also attaching a self-portrait done by Stephen in later life. From what I've found out, he was the black sheep of the family, always trying to borrow money so perhaps not that far-fetched!

Just to add a possible further red herring, or so that you can see any family resemblance, I'm attaching what I believe to be a photo of Daniel, another brother, who joined up with Canadian forces and died of wounds after the Somme.

Ros

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, RosBrownlee said:

Here are photos of my grandfather Philip and his medals. They look like brothers to me but I may be wrong.

I'm also attaching a self-portrait done by Stephen in later life. From what I've found out, he was the black sheep of the family, always trying to borrow money so perhaps not that far-fetched!

Just to add a possible further red herring, or so that you can see any family resemblance, I'm attaching what I believe to be a photo of Daniel, another brother, who joined up with Canadian forces and died of wounds after the Somme.

Ros

The uppermost photo again shows a commissioned officer (subaltern, i.e. lieutenant).  His collar badge would indicate his regiment.  It might well be RA but I cannot quite make it out on my phone screen.

The other fellow is indeed Canadian and dressed in the indigenous style of jacket that they wore until issued with standard British uniform.  Typically for Canadians he wears collar badges based on maple leaves (the design superimposed varied) and he is a sergeant.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RosBrownlee]

Frogsmile: thank you for your really interesting explanation and photos. A big contrast between the uniforms. Good to know about the Canadian jacket too, and the fact he was a sergeant.

Much appreciated,

Ros

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, RosBrownlee said:

Frogsmile: thank you for your really interesting explanation and photos. A big contrast between the uniforms. Good to know about the Canadian jacket too, and the fact he was a sergeant.

Much appreciated,

Ros

I’m glad to help a little Ros.  You don’t seem to have a photo of Stephen Chapman, who appears to have been medically discharged without any service overseas.  Despite enlisting in the first year of the war, he served right until its end in Britain.  It very probably saved his life, as the casualty rate of the infantry was the highest in the Army and he was an infantryman (albeit a limited one) throughout the war.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RosBrownlee]

You're right, it seems there's no photo of Stephen, if the first photo I sent is not of him.  I guess it'll have to remain a mystery.

Thanks again.

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, RosBrownlee said:

You're right, it seems there's no photo of Stephen, if the first photo I sent is not of him.  I guess it'll have to remain a mystery.

Thanks again.

Perhaps the first fellow whose photo you posted, the RA officer, was connected in some way with your grandfather.

As for Stephen, his precise movements are listed in chronological order on the document with the printed stamp “EMBODIED” in block letters near its top.  He started with the Territorials 2nd Line, but when conscription was introduced they tried several times to move him to a unit preparing for overseas service, and on each occasion he proved / showed himself to be medically unfit to deploy.  The units are listed on the left side of the page, but the details are partly obscured by singeing from the WW2 incendiary raid on the Arnside Street storage warehouses.  To the right are the dates as he moved to and fro.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RosBrownlee]

Yes, that's the only thing I can think of too.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, RosBrownlee said:

Yes, that's the only thing I can think of too.

It would be relatively unusual to keep that style of photo of just a friend, so perhaps a cousin from another branch of the family.  At that time both paternal and maternal branches often had family members serving simultaneously.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RosBrownlee]

Interesting, yes, I'll try and investigate cousins. That would make sense.

[RosBrownlee]

Apologies for straining your patience further but would you be kind enough to identify the sleeve badge in this photo? I believe it's an earlier photo of my grandfather Philip Chapman (unless it's the elusive Stephen).

Philip joined up in 1907, was Sergeant in 1914. At one point he was with the IX Brigade Royal Field Artillery, 7th Meerut Division. Promoted to 2nd Lieutenant in April 1918 and Lieutenant in September 1919. Here also is his medal card.

Thanks again.

[Tawhiri]

There appears to have been at least two Philip Chapman's serving with the Royal Field Artillery as officers, with at least one qualifying for the 1914 Star, and subsequently being commissioned from the ranks. This individual shows as Sergeant P Chapman (service number 45134) in the Royal Field Artillery 1914 Star medal roll, with an initial date of entry into a theatre of war on 14 October 1914, before subsequently being commissioned on 5 April 1918, and applying for their British War and Victory Medals as an officer.

Image sourced from Ancestry:

The second individual seems to have been commissioned into the Royal Field Artillery on 12 August 1917, although I'm struggling to decide whether their medal index card is showing prior service in the Royal Horse Artillery with the service number 197564. I can't find any trace of a soldier with this service number having had prior overseas service in any of the usual places, so perhaps those who know more could comment. This individual did have the MC, as can be seen from their medal index card.

Image sourced from Ancestry:

Where the waters get a little muddier is that there is also a 2nd Lieutenant/Lieutenant Philip Chapman serving with the Royal Field Artillery postwar, who was born on 4 February 1889, and died in service on 11 January 1923, who from their age must have served during WW1. Whether this individual is one of the two men identified above is not clear.

Edited to add whoops, cross-posted with the OP's reply.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by Tawhiri

[RosBrownlee]

Thanks so much for looking this up. My grandfather's service number was 45134 (engraved on his medals which I have) so it's the first one, who did indeed die in 1923. Is the sleeve badge in the photo identifiable?

[6RRF]

Not an expert, but the combination of tapes and cannon suggests a Battery Sergeant Major, although I'd expect a crown on the top

[FROGSMILE]

The soldier in this most recent photo is a sergeant in the Royal Field Artillery and the badge above his stripes is an artillery piece (a Gun in common parlance) which was the special arm badge of artillery in the British Army since 1832.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RosBrownlee]

That's great, thanks so much. Indicates it very probably is an earlier photo of my grandfather, taken between 1914 and 1918.