Identify shoulder title Manchester Regiment

[zouave48]

Can anyone help me identify my Great Uncles shoulder title, the one between the button on his epaulet and the tile closest to his shoulder? The one in the middle?

He enlisted in the 12th Manchester's February 1917. Due to severe manpower replacement shortages many units were disbanded including the Duke of Lancaster's (DLOY) 24 Sept 1917 except a small headquarters detachment which was seconded to the 12th Manchester's which henceforth became known as 12th (DLOY) Battalion the Manchester Regiment to bring the remaining units up to manpower full strength.

I've been told the white lanyard around his left shoulder indicates cavalry. The title closest to his shoulder seam appears to be perhaps a DLO for Duke of Lancaster however I have looked every where and can not find a title with the shape of the title in the middle.

Thank you for your advice!

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, zouave48 said:

Can anyone help me identify my Great Uncles shoulder title, the one between the button on his epaulet and the tile closest to his shoulder? The one in the middle?

He enlisted in the 12th Manchester's February 1917. Due to severe manpower replacement shortages many units were disbanded including the Duke of Lancaster's (DLOY) 24 Sept 1917 except a small headquarters detachment which was seconded to the 12th Manchester's which henceforth became known as 12th (DLOY) Battalion the Manchester Regiment to bring the remaining units up to manpower full strength.

I've been told the white lanyard around his left shoulder indicates cavalry. The title closest to his shoulder seam appears to be perhaps a DLO for Duke of Lancaster however I have looked every where and can not find a title with the shape of the title in the middle.

Thank you for your advice!

It’s a shoulder title with an early pattern collar badge above.  The collar badge was the rose of Lancaster which can be made out.  Topping it is either a crown or I think probably a small Prince of Wales’s feathers.  The Duke of Lancaster is always also the Prince of Wales.

[PhilB]

Frogsmile, do you think the lanyard and epaulettes badges have been touched up (and maybe altered) by the photographer? 
And may I suggest that the Duke of Lancaster is actually the monarch not the PoW!

”The Dukedom of Lancaster is an extinct English peerage. It was created three times during the Middle Ages but finally merged in the Crown when Henry V succeeded to the throne in 1413. Despite the extinction of the dukedom the title has continued to be used to refer to the reigning monarch of the United Kingdom in relation to Lancashire and the Duchy of Lancaster, an estate held separately from the Crown Estate for the benefit of the sovereign.”

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, PhilB said:

Frogsmile, do you think the lanyard and epaulettes badges have been touched up (and maybe altered) by the photographer? 
And may I suggest that the Duke of Lancaster is actually the monarch not the PoW!

”The Dukedom of Lancaster is an extinct English peerage. It was created three times during the Middle Ages but finally merged in the Crown when Henry V succeeded to the throne in 1413. Despite the extinction of the dukedom the title has continued to be used to refer to the reigning monarch of the United Kingdom in relation to Lancashire and the Duchy of Lancaster, an estate held separately from the Crown Estate for the benefit of the sovereign.”

Yes you’re right of course Phil, it’s the funds from the Duchy of Lancaster that fund the Queen’s private activities as you say.  It’s the Duchy of Cornwall that supports the Prince of Wales and I mixed them up.

 I think the lanyard has been whitened although whether by the photographic process or not I don’t know.  The main gist of my post is as intended.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[zouave48]

Thank you PhilB and FROGSMILE for your comments!

Do you think that his title is a combination of the 2 different titles? One possibly being the feathers of the attached Prince of Wales collar badge, and the lower portion being The Duke of Lancaster badge?

It does look like feathers on the top portion of the badge, and an oval badge below that has a wreath of leaves around the outside edges. To me it also looks like the bottom badge is not solid metal, it looks like there may be voids/dark spot so to speak where you can see the tunic through the badge.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, zouave48 said:

Thank you PhilB and FROGSMILE for your comments!

Do you think that his title is a combination of the 2 different titles? One possibly being the feathers of the attached Prince of Wales collar badge, and the lower portion being The Duke of Lancaster badge?

It does look like feathers on the top portion of the badge, and an oval badge below that has a wreath of leaves around the outside edges. To me it also looks like the bottom badge is not solid metal, it looks like there may be voids/dark spot so to speak where you can see the tunic through the badge.

Yes I think it’s exactly something like that, although it needs more research and further photos to corroborate the detail.  The regiment had quite a variety of different shoulder titles between 1902 and 1937. 

Edited 29 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[zouave48]

Yes I understand. That is the only photo I have of him. I did blow the photo up and it sure looks like the 2 badges you suggested. If you or anyone has any idea's on where to go from here to verify I would really appreciate your input. Thank you!

[PhilB]

I’m still wondering where the lanyard actually goes to. It doesn’t seem to be the pocket where it should be?

[zouave48]

Yes I understand. That is the only photo I have of him. I did blow the photo up and it sure looks like the 2 badges you suggested. If you or anyone has any idea's on where to go from here to verify I would really appreciate your input. Thank you!

I wonder if it's a lanyard or a shoulder cord representing the Duke of Lancaster Yeomanry?

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, zouave48 said:

Yes I understand. That is the only photo I have of him. I did blow the photo up and it sure looks like the 2 badges you suggested. If you or anyone has any idea's on where to go from here to verify I would really appreciate your input. Thank you!

I wonder if it's a lanyard or a shoulder cord representing the Duke of Lancaster Yeomanry?

At that time the lanyards all had a practical purpose (most commonly securing the universally issued clasp knife), and whitening them was just an affectation favoured by some, predominantly mounted corps.  Their use as mere decoration is a relatively modern development (since WW2). 

20 hours ago, zouave48 said:

Yes I understand. That is the only photo I have of him. I did blow the photo up and it sure looks like the 2 badges you suggested. If you or anyone has any idea's on where to go from here to verify I would really appreciate your input. Thank you!

I’m confident of what the badges are, it’s just a matter of trying to find further images and and records of the practice.  If the upper badge is not POW feathers then I think it’s probably the Duchy Coronet, which was also the cavalry arm badge of SNCOs within the unit.  That would also match as a smaller version of the lowermost badge that I enclose below, comprising rose, laurels and duchy coronet, with the shoulder title shown worn beneath.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

13 hours ago, zouave48 said:

except a small headquarters detachment which was seconded to the 12th Manchester's

Not quite so small, RHQ and 2 Squadrons were absorbed into the 12th Bn, a total of 7 Officers and 125 men.

I agree with PhilB, I think the buttons and epaulette badges have either been retouched or added later. Compare the 4 buttons on the front of his tunic, the detail can only be seen on one. The brightness is too irregular to be reflection.

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Not quite so small, RHQ and 2 Squadrons were absorbed into the 12th Bn, a total of 7 Officers and 125 men.

I agree with PhilB, I think the buttons and epaulette badges have either been retouched or added later. Compare the 4 buttons on the front of his tunic, the detail can only be seen on one. The brightness is too irregular to be reflection.

Charlie

It’s difficult to be 100% sure, but I don’t see any retouching / manipulation on the shoulder insignia, as the detail is relatively clear.  It seems more as if there’s a source of direct light (either sunlight through a window, or a bright lamp of some kind) focused on his left side.  His face is noticeably lighter on that side than the other.  It’s a good quality original glass plate photo I think, as the woven detail of the lanyard and the coat of arms on the uppermost general service buttons are both quite clear (as you mentioned).

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

But if you look at the man`s face and hair, there has been a lot of retouching. It`s difficult to think why that should happen but it`s reasonable to think it applies to the rest of the photo too.

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, PhilB said:

But if you look at the man`s face and hair, there has been a lot of retouching. It`s difficult to think why that should happen but it`s reasonable to think it applies to the rest of the photo too.

I don’t know Phil, I’m not as convinced as you, I’d prefer to see the original print.  It’s difficult to know at the moment how the image we’re looking at was created, i.e. is it a camera phone picture, or something else.  Perhaps the OP can enlighten us.  @Dai Bach y Sowldiwrusually has a good handle on these image technicalities and it will be interesting to know what he thinks?

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s difficult to know at the moment how the image we’re looking at was created, i.e. is it a camera phone picture, or something else.  Perhaps the OP can enlighten us.  

Indeed, it's the familiar story of a low resolution scan or photo, degenerating when magnified.

There's a lot of JPEG artefact throughout, showing blocking and pixellation in most areas of the image that contains fine detail, ie. the hair, the buttons, shoulder title - all the interesting bits. Less detailed areas have a more smoothed effect -the skin, the background and the uniform. Lots of digital cameras and phone cameras will show this. Unfortunately, with this image, you can see the artefact even at normal 100% size, let alone when magnified. I think that the smoothing part of the process makes it look as though the image has been re-touched, but without a far better scan, it's hard to be sure.

So it's the same solution -a new high resolution scan, saved as a JPG file at 100% quality.

The shoulder titles and the lanyard questions would I'm sure be answered.

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Indeed, it's the familiar story of a low resolution scan or photo, degenerating when magnified.

There's a lot of JPEG artefact throughout, showing blocking and pixellation in most areas of the image that contains fine detail, ie. the hair, the buttons, shoulder title - all the interesting bits. Less detailed areas have a more smoothed effect -the skin, the background and the uniform. Lots of digital cameras and phone cameras will show this. Unfortunately, with this image, you can see the artefact even at normal 100% size, let alone when magnified. I think that the smoothing part of the process makes it look as though the image has been re-touched, but without a far better scan, it's hard to be sure.

So it's the same solution -a new high resolution scan, saved as a JPG file at 100% quality.

The shoulder titles and the lanyard questions would I'm sure be answered.

Thanks Dai, let’s see what the OP has to say.

[PhilB]

[zouave48]

Thank you all!!

Unfortunately I don't have the original photo in fact the photo that was copied and sent to me doesn't look like an original either. See the attachment.

The photo is of William Travis. His Son, Gordon my Cousin lives in California. I will ask him if he can send me as good a scan as possible. I don't know if that is possible or would help. He is 86 and in a retirement facility. I copied and filed the photo off the computer so I can say it was at least scanned once or more. I just went back through the information I have received and I see where there is a comment about a DOLOY shoulder badge #VB05 being at the Lancaster's Own Yeomanry Museum. I don't know what that looks like.

It's very hard to find photo's of men who were in the 12th Manchester's let alone photo's of the men who were a part of the combining of the DOLY and 12th Manchester's. At least that has been my experience.

Below is a little history of my Family in WW1 and WW2 if your interested in a little read.

My Dad Colin was born in the UK and came to the US in 1927 with his parents, my Grandparents. He fought in WW2 with the USA, 12th Armored Division 572nd AAA Battery D. My Uncle Harry Mordan fought in the same unit as my Dad he was in HQ Battalion. My Dad's Dad, my Grandfather Robert was in the 7th King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment and fought for 4 years and 189 days and was wounded twice by GSW. His Brother Henry my Great Uncle was in the 1/7th Manchester's and was KIA Sept. 2nd 1918 near Villers Au Flos and is interred at Bancourt British Cemetery, Pas de Calais, France. His other Brother William, my Great Uncle who is in the photo we are discussing fought in both WW1 and WW2. As I mentioned he was in the 12th Manchester's. He was gassed March 21st 1918 and captured by the Germans March 24th 1918 at Rocquigny - Prs-De-Calre and repatriated November 22nd 1918. He re-enlisted December 15th 1939 and fought with the 12th Bn. Royal Warwickshire Regiment in France during WW2. I also have a Great Uncle on my Mother's side of the family who was in the USMC 1st Battalion 6th Marines and was KIA at Belleau Wood July 2nd 1918. 

So my goal is to gather as much information, put together shadow boxes for each and pass everything on to my Son and his Son's. I don't want any of them to be forgotten. 

[FROGSMILE]

I wish you well with your ‘shadow boxes’ (not a term I’d heard before, although the concept is common here too).  Certainly a better scan will help enormously.  I see that there’s a print of the photo in your box, but I’m assuming it’s not the original.  You might also consider contacting the DLOY successor unit and / or it’s museum with a copy of your photo and an explanation of what you seek.  One possibility that’s occurred to me is that it might be a hybrid shoulder title combining the ‘standard’ title of the Manchester Regiment (there were a few variants) and above it the collar badge of the DLOY, but that is mere speculation on my part.  What made me consider it possible is that there’s no apparent Y for Yeomanry connected to the top of the title as I would normally expect to see.  It’s important that I make you understand it’s not normal/common for regiments other than Guards, Fusiliers and Light Infantry to have a small badge above the title.  The design of the badge, such as we can see with the poor scan, is almost certainly an other ranks (enlisted men) pattern of collar badge.  Prewar collar badges were intended for coloured uniforms in barracks and not for drab khaki in the field, but some regiments, quite a number of them cavalry like the yeomanry ignored this.  Retaining the badge on the shoulder strap might have been a way to retain a sense of connection in the 12th Manchester’s with their origins as yeomen.  Finally, I’m not sure if you’re aware but the Manchester Regiment badge in your shadow box is the WW2 version and different to that which would have been worn in WW1.  I enclose an image of the correct badge worn by rank and file.

“The Regimental Collection is an accredited museum with its own trustee body, co-located with the Museum of Lancashire at Stanley Street, Preston. The collaboration with Lancashire County Council Museums Service commenced in the 1980s. The collection includes a small number of paintings and a full range of artefacts telling the history of the Regiment.“

Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry Museum

Museum of Lancashire, Stanley Street, Preston, Lancashire PR1 4YP England 

01772 534075

https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/leisure-and-culture/museums/museum-of-lancashire/

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I believe the fleur de lys badge is very similar but not identical to that which would have been worn by Henry in the 1/7 Manchesters.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by PhilB

[zouave48]

Thank you,

The shadow box I attached is my Cousin's, has his Dad William's items in it. I attached it because I assume the photo in the box is where the copy I received came from.

I will see if I can make contact with Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry Museum and ask them about the shoulder title as well.

Thank you so much for your help!

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, zouave48 said:

Thank you,

The shadow box I attached is my Cousin's, has his Dad William's items in it. I attached it because I assume the photo in the box is where the copy I received came from.

I will see if I can make contact with Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry Museum and ask them about the shoulder title as well.

Thank you so much for your help!

I’m glad to help a little.  This is the badge worn by 7th Battalion Manchester Regiment (Territorial Force - equivalent of US National Guard) and referred to by PhilB.   It wasn’t worn by other battalions of the Manchester regiment.  As I understand it the 12th Manchester’s was the unit of your forebear.  Good luck with your further research.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[JOVE23]

On 30/11/2021 at 14:44, zouave48 said:

Thank you,

The shadow box I attached is my Cousin's, has his Dad William's items in it. I attached it because I assume the photo in the box is where the copy I received came from.

I will see if I can make contact with Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry Museum and ask them about the shoulder title as well.

Thank you so much for your help!

I wonder if your cousin would be amenable to opening the box and scanning the photo at a very high resolution, like 1200 dpi?

Not only would it help us with this mystery, it provides a permanent digital copy of the photograph should (God forbid) anything ever happen to the original.

[zouave48]

Hi Jove23,

I sent my Cousin a message and asked him if he could have it scanned at 1200 dpi. He is in his mid 80's and in a retirement home so we will see if that is possible.

Thank you for your input. That's a great idea!

Have a good day,

Marty

[FROGSMILE]

@CorporalPunishment: have you seen this one Pete?  I’d be interested to know what you can make out on your monitor?