Seeking information on Henry John Groves of The tank corp.

[D G 68]

Hi all. I’m seeking information on my grandfather gnr Henry John Groves who served with the tank corp. He enlisted on the 6th April 1916 into the heavy section m.g c. army no 38049 and later 200667. He was with c company and left for France on the 16th aug 16 and have been trying to find out which tank commander or tank he served with or in.

[david murdoch]

He shows up on Stephen Pope's Nominal Roll for C Coy for September 1916 but he's not one of those identified to a specific crew. He's one of many who's Tank Corps medal card does not show his previous MGC number. 

The Motorcycle  newspaper is showing up an H.G. Groves (Witney) in their enlistment  list of 4th May 1916 (so enlisting in the week prior). However by his service record looks like Henry enlisted directly at a recruiting office and joined at Bisley on April 6th.

First Tank Crews | Facebook

Edited 29 November , 2021 by david murdoch

[D G 68]

Thanks for the quick reply (old sweats). His service records date from 28th March 16 and he enlisted in Oxford.

[kenf48]

His service record shows he attended the School of Cookery on the 6th January 1917, returning to 'C' Company on the 27th so as David has mentioned may not have been in a specific crew.  He appears to have remained with the Company throughout until posted to the Tank Corps Depot in May 1919.

 

[D G 68]

That’s confirmed what I thought it was saying, any idea why he would have been going to cookery school while he was with the tanks.

[johntaylor]

The expert on the first tank crews is Stephen Pope, so let's hope he can shed some light on what part Henry Groves might have played in the first actions in 1916.  From his service record it appears he stayed in C Battalion, later 3rd Tank Battalion, until the end of the war when he transferred to 19th Tank Battalion. This never served overseas so he must have joined after his return to the UK in 1919. There is a brief History of 19th Bn in the National Archives but I've checked and there is no mention of him: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4558609

I also had a quick look through the War Diary of 3rd Tank Bn but couldn't see his name - however 'other ranks' weren't normally named unless they became a casualty or won a medal. So I'm afraid this doesn't take things much further.

In answer to your question about the cookery course, as far as I'm aware the battalion cooks and other supporting staff would have been members of the Tank Corps, so that may have been his role.

John

 

 

Edited 29 November , 2021 by johntaylor

[Michelle Young]

@delta

[D G 68]

Thanks John. It’s starting to look like he never served in a tank but was a dispatch rider. 1 that’s wha he wanted to be on his enlistment papers and 2 I’ve just been going through family photos and the only one of him in the war is of him on a motorbike classed as a dispatch rider. Darren

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, D G 68 said:

Thanks John. It’s starting to look like he never served in a tank but was a dispatch rider. 1 that’s wha he wanted to be on his enlistment papers and 2 I’ve just been going through family photos and the only one of him in the war is of him on a motorbike classed as a dispatch rider. Darren

3 hours ago, D G 68 said:

Thanks John. It’s starting to look like he never served in a tank but was a dispatch rider. 1 that’s wha he wanted to be on his enlistment papers and 2 I’ve just been going through family photos and the only one of him in the war is of him on a motorbike classed as a dispatch rider. Darren

There is a massive connection between motorbikes and tanks. A large number the first tank crews who ended up in MGC Heavy Section had originally joined the Motor Machine Gun Service  in 1915 expecting to be in motorcycle batteries (a lot of them through The Motorcycle newspaper). There was another influx in November 1917 when a number of MMG batteries were disbanded and the men transferred to Heavy Branch. Later the Tank Corps dispatch riders were rebadged/renumbered as Royal Engineers (Signals)

On his enlistment he put Dispatch Rider R E so he must have has prior motorcycle experience - possibly through his job with Royal Mail. 

[D G 68]

He was always motorbike mad. He had his own cycle company and collected a vast number of vintage motorcycles right up to the day he died at the age of 82 in 1979.

Edited 30 November , 2021 by D G 68

[dgibson150]

There are quite a few cooks in a tank battalion, see here, one per section, one per company HQ and one per battalion HQ. Not quite as exciting as as a depatch rider though.

David

 

[D G 68]

Thanks David. Let’s hope we end up going down the dispatch rider route, definitely more exciting.

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, dgibson150 said:

Not quite as exciting as as a depatch rider though.

A good cook was probably more valuable for morale and effective performance of the unit in the field than someone on a motorcycle.  

The literature and diaries, not necessarily of the Tank Corps, frequently mention the impact and comfort of coming out of the line to a hot meal prepared by 'battalion' cooks.

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, D G 68 said:

He was always motorbike mad. He had his own cycle company and collected a vast number of vintage motorcycles right up to the day he died at the age of 82 in 1979.

He fit's right in to the pattern! My grandfather joined Motor Machine Gun Service in 1915 "to get a free motorbike" and been  motorbike(s) in the family ever since. 

Douglas 1914 2¾hp 350 cc 2 cyl sv - Yesterdays

[delta]

21 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

@delta

Thanks for the link Michelle

Reading the background now

 

[Stebie9173]

Just one comment - I notice on the casualty form (page 30347 on Ancestry) that it refers to him as a Gunner.

 

Steve.

[delta]

Good afternoon Steve

Great to be in contact again

It was not uncommon for former members of the HS MGC to continue to be referred to as Gunner in 1917 as the new tank battalions formed.  The use of private, as a rank, seems to start with the formation of the Tank Corps. 

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2021 by delta

[pjwmacro]

22 hours ago, johntaylor said:

The expert on the first tank crews is Stephen Pope,

Known as "delta" on these means - and I see he is now on this thread.

6 hours ago, D G 68 said:

He was always motorbike mad. He had his own cycle company and collected a vast number of vintage motorcycles right up to the day he died at the age of 82 in 1979.

Great photo - thanks for sharing - welcome to the forum.

[delta]

Welcome to the Forum D G 68

Thank for posting this wonderful photo and telling us about your grandfather,  It is wonderful to be in touch with a relative of the First Tank Crews,  Sadly I did not learn of your grandfather's service until Jan 2020 as he does not appear on the C Coy landing list 

As you have his service records, i will not repeat any detail but may be able to add useful comment. 

He deployed with the first main main body of C Company which indicates he was either a crewman in a Male (ie 6 pounder gun) tank or a member of the Coy HQ.  

Given the photo, he was almost certainly a despatch rider in 1918 (date assumed from the fact that he is wearing a Tank Corps cap badge). he could well have been one in 1916 as well.  The Coy HQ had three despatch riders and, although many of the FTC were riders, his previous employment with the post office - and the reference to  service with the Royal Engineers  - support this.  The Coy HQ did not however have cooks which is why he may have been selected to undertake the course in Jan 1917. 

He served with No 8 Coy of C Battalion in 1917; that he was granted leave in Oct 1917 indicates he was not a tank crewmen at this point - the crews were given leave after the Battle of Cambrai  not before.  It is again possible he was serving with No 8 Coy HQ. 

He then served with 3rd Light Battalion which converted to Whippets in the Spring 1918. In Jan 1919, he was posted back to Bovington but retained with the Tanks, joining 19th Bn.  This formed in late 1918 and drew together an lot of experienced crewmen to act as a skeleton around which to built the new unit. 

I would be very interested to learn more about him and his family after the war.  If you wish to get in direct contact, my email is firsttankcrews@outlook.com

 

 

Stephen Pope. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2021 by delta

[johntaylor]

Hi Stephen, are you sure the cap badge in the photo is Tank Corps? It's hard to make out, but as David points out, when he enlisted in the MGC in April 1916 he said he had prior military service as a "Despatch Rider R.E." (though there's no other mention of this in his service or medal records). I would have thought the cap badge in the photo could equally well be RE, in which case it would date from pre-1916.

Also I'm not sure about the landing list, but he does appear on the list of C Company men who went overseas in August 1916:

Re the importance of cooks to the tank crews, I'm reminded of a comment by Horace Birks of D Battalion in a BBC interview, describing events just before start of the Battle of Cambrai: "By half past five we were all lined up in the front trenches with our gear ready to go, consumed with anxiety because the rum and soup that our fat sergeant cook ‘Tootsie’ Hands had promised hadn’t arrived, but thank God it came before we started and then it was too hot to drink and it very nearly delayed the offensive."

The surname sounds like "Hands" but I haven't been managed to identify him so far. Definitely an unsung hero.

John

Edited 30 November , 2021 by johntaylor

[Stebie9173]

He didn't have any prior R.E. service. The answers on his enlistment was:

7. Do you have any previous military experience? No

8. Do you have a preference for any particular branch? Despatch Rider, R.E.

 

Steve.

[johntaylor]

Just checked - you're quite right, thanks for the correction. So it must be a Tank Corps cap badge.

John

[delta]

Richard Pullen (on the FTC Facebook page) states that the colour of the petrol tank also puts it late in the war. 

[johntaylor]

That's something I definitely wouldn't have picked up!

John

[delta]

Nor me!