Machine Gun Corps

[Sparkle]

I understand that all records for the Machine Gun Corps were destroyed by fire after WW1. Is there any way I can find out what battles they were involved in? My grandfather Leonard Percy Anspach was in the MGC and I know he was gassed and also had the right to wear a wound stripe and I would just like to understand where these events might have taken place. Thankyou to anyone who has any ideas.

[jay dubaya]

Not so easy Sparkle, the MGC were subdivided between infantry brigades and divisions, you would need more precise information on his actual unit within the MGC to know where he was.  Sadly the Medal Rolls and Medal Index Card only show MGC. Both these documents confirm he went overseas post 31st December 1915. 
How do you know the detail surrounding his wound stripe? Do you have an image of Leonard? (It may hold further clues). Where was home to Leonard? Providing as much information as you can may help to providing us with a specific unit.

Edited 27 November , 2021 by jay dubaya

[AndrewSid]

Sparkle,

Firstly your in the right place.  We will be able to discover the basics but to give people here the best chance can you provide any personal clues: a photo,  letter, place and Date of birth,  family rumour all may hep us as we search through the available documents.

For example here is his Medal Index Card.  From this we know he didn’t go to France before 1916.  From his number we are likely to be able to work out when he joined the MGC

 

 

Edited 27 November , 2021 by AndrewSid

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

Not so easy Sparkle, the MGC were subdivided between infantry brigades and divisions, you would need more precise information on his actual unit within the MGC to know where he was.  Sadly the Medal Rolls and Medal Index Card only show MGC. Both these documents confirm he went overseas post 31st December 1915. 
How do you know the detail surrounding his wound stripe? Do you have an image of Leonard? (It may hold further clues). Where was home to Leonard? Providing as much information as you can may help to providing us with a specific unit.

I do have a photo (or the top half of a photo that I saved from a fire!) but not sure how I would upload. I know he had a wound stripe because I found it on his medals record and his wife told me he was gassed although he would never talk about the war. He lost his sense of taste and smell for life. He lived in Ilford but was born in Bethnal Green,

[david murdoch]

Well can do a bit of digging and looking at numbers find out when he joined the MGC. By his medal roll he was  Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) and does not show another regiment prior to MGC. He was discharged from the army 7th November 1919 which is quite late, and can sometimes be an indicator he was serving further afield (Middle East, Iraq, India ect). There are several casualties on his roll page  which by their "soldiers died records" do not show a previous regiment  (and usually they do even if not shown on the medal roll). You would need to find out what Company or battalion he was in  to look at war diaries which though they probably  would not mention him by name - give you a good idea of where he was and actions he was involved in. Not seeing him on the absent voters rolls which sometimes give units. There is a lot of background information on public  Ancestry family trees also a couple of the private ones have more linked documents - so someone may have a picture.

115578 Gerald George Burford was discharged on medical grounds and has a surviving record. Shows he enlisted 21/8/1916 but only mobilised February 1917 posted to 15th London Regiment then transferred to MGC August 1917. He then went to France November 1917 to MGC base depot and posted to his unit at the end of November 1917.

So the number 115588 would be issued to Leonard second week of August 1917 and likely he went overseas October November 1917. Likely he was assigned a unit once he went to France.

[jay dubaya]

If you already have a digital copy of the image you can hit the ‘add image’ button (bottom left... although I’m using an iPhone) select image, once uploaded click ‘insert image’ which appears top right on the image thumbnail.

[Sparkle]

30 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

Sparkle,

Firstly your in the right place.  We will be able to discover the basics but to give people here the best chance can you provide any personal clues: a photo,  letter, place and Date of birth,  family rumour all may hep us as we search through the available documents.

For example here is his Medal Index Card.  From this we know he didn’t go to France before 1916.  From his number we are likely to be able to work out when he joined the MGC

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

Sparkle,

Firstly your in the right place.  We will be able to discover the basics but to give people here the best chance can you provide any personal clues: a photo,  letter, place and Date of birth,  family rumour all may hep us as we search through the available documents.

For example here is his Medal Index Card.  From this we know he didn’t go to France before 1916.  From his number we are likely to be able to work out when he joined the MGC

 

 

I do have a photo (or the top half of a photo that I saved from a fire!) but not sure how I would upload. I know he had a wound stripe because I found it on his medals record and his wife told me he was gassed although he would never talk about the war. He lost his sense of taste and smell for life. He lived in Ilford but was born in Bethnal Green in August 1898. His best friend was called Tommy, but I don't suppose that is any help ***! I'll see what I can do about the photo as he is in uniform. I believe, or at laest according to the transcription of his medal card, the number is incomplete. Any help gratefully received.

[Sparkle]

4 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Well can do a bit of digging and looking at numbers find out when he joined the MGC. By his medal roll he was  Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) and does not show another regiment prior to MGC. He was discharged from the army 7th November 1919 which is quite late, and can sometimes be an indicator he was serving further afield (Middle East, Iraq, India ect). There are several casualties on his roll page  which by their "soldiers died records" do not show a previous regiment  (and usually they do even if not shown on the medal roll). You would need to find out what Company or battalion he was in  to look at war diaries which though they probably  would not mention him by name - give you a good idea of where he was and actions he was involved in. Not seeing him on the absent voters rolls which sometimes give units. There is a lot of background information on public  Ancestry family trees also a couple of the private ones have more linked documents - so someone may have a picture.

115578 Gerald George Burford was discharged on medical grounds and has a surviving record. Shows he enlisted 21/8/1916 but only mobilised February 1917 posted to 15th London Regiment then transferred to MGC August 1917. He then went to France November 1917 to MGC base depot and posted to his unit at the end of November 1917.

So the number 115588 would be issued to Leonard second week of August 1917 and likely he went overseas October November 1917. Likely he was assigned a unit once he went to France.

Thankyou. I had understood that 115588 was an incomplete number. I have nothing which indicates his company or battalion other than this.  I have heard about the absent voters roll but couldn't see any link to it on FindMyPast. I do have the top half of a picture which I managed to save from a fire don't know if I can upload that: he is in uniform. I think he was only in France. I hadn't realised he didn't go over until 1917 and was discharged 1919. How did you find all this info?  Very grateful.

[Sparkle]

23 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

If you already have a digital copy of the image you can hit the ‘add image’ button (bottom left... although I’m using an iPhone) select image, once uploaded click ‘insert image’ which appears top right on the image thumbnail.

Thankyou. I don't have an iphone but I will see what I can do when I have dug out the picture. Thankyou!

[david murdoch]

7 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Thankyou. I had understood that 115588 was an incomplete number. I have nothing which indicates his company or battalion other than this.  I have heard about the absent voters roll but couldn't see any link to it on FindMyPast. I do have the top half of a picture which I managed to save from a fire don't know if I can upload that: he is in uniform. I think he was only in France. I hadn't realised he didn't go over until 1917 and was discharged 1919. How did you find all this info?  Very grateful.

Discharge date is on his Medal roll page. The date he joined MGC is by transfer date of a very close number - probably issued the same week. There is a fair chance he was with a unit and did his basic training in the UK then transferred to MGC.  These units or previous (home service) numbers  do not usually show up on medal rolls or card as the medal rolls show unit and number when the medal entitlement was gained (overseas service).  If he was only in Europe but with a late discharge date could be he was in army of occupation in Germany in 1919.

[Sparkle]

8 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Discharge date is on his Medal roll page. The date he joined MGC is by transfer date of a very close number - probably issued the same week. There is a fair chance he was with a unit and did his basic training in the UK then transferred to MGC.  These units or previous (home service) numbers  do not usually show up on medal rolls or card as the medal rolls show unit and number when the medal entitlement was gained (overseas service).  If he was only in Europe but with a late discharge date could be he was in army of occupation in Germany in 1919.

 

8 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Discharge date is on his Medal roll page. The date he joined MGC is by transfer date of a very close number - probably issued the same week. There is a fair chance he was with a unit and did his basic training in the UK then transferred to MGC.  These units or previous (home service) numbers  do not usually show up on medal rolls or card as the medal rolls show unit and number when the medal entitlement was gained (overseas service).  If he was only in Europe but with a late discharge date could be he was in army of occupation in Germany in 1919.

So interesting. Thankyou.

[AndrewSid]

Sparkle,

Did  he live in Ilford by 1939  and have wife named Alice with a son Ronald?

If that’s him. His DOB is 30 Aug 1898.  So, 16 at wars start.  Called up earliest Aug 1916 aged  18,   noting the chaos of mass mobilisation.   

[Sparkle]

Just now, AndrewSid said:

Sparkle,

Did  he live in Ilford by 1939  and have wife named Alice with a son Ronald?

If that’s him. His DOB is 30 Aug 1898.  So, 16 at wars start.  Called up earliest Aug 1916 aged  18,   noting the chaos of mass mobilisation.   

Yes, that is him. I thought he had been called up in 1916 but it looks like it was a year later in 1917.

 

Just now, AndrewSid said:

Sparkle,

Did  he live in Ilford by 1939  and have wife named Alice with a son Ronald?

If that’s him. His DOB is 30 Aug 1898.  So, 16 at wars start.  Called up earliest Aug 1916 aged  18,   noting the chaos of mass mobilisation.   

 

[Allan1892]

16 hours ago, Sparkle said:

My grandfather Leonard Percy Anspach was in the MGC and I know he was gassed and also had the right to wear a wound stripe

I have looked on Fold3 for any pension records but can not find anything.

[Sparkle]

4 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

I have looked on Fold3 for any pension records but can not find anything.

Thankyou. Neither could I, but luckily someone else found it for me. Don't know how!

[AndrewSid]

 

Sparkle,

 

A good link below as background reading.  He should not have been sent overseas until he was 18 years and 6 months old.  I think that puts us at August 1916 plus six months so eligible to deploy from Jan 1917 at the v earliest. However we of course know he didn’t deploy until he was with the MGC and the number tells us fairly accurate when he joined them. 

its very possible he joined another regiment before the MGC.  Davids research below is a very strong marker on his MGC details. 

13 hours ago, david murdoch said:

So the number 115588 would be issued to Leonard second week of August 1917 and likely he went overseas October November 1917. Likely he was assigned a unit once he went to France.

 

Ideally we need a bit more from you to dig deeper. 

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/

[Sparkle]

8 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

 

Sparkle,

 

A good link below as background reading.  He should not have been sent overseas until he was 18 years and 6 months old.  I think that puts us at August 1916 plus six months so eligible to deploy from Jan 1917 at the v earliest. However we of course know he didn’t deploy until he was with the MGC and the number tells us fairly accurate when he joined them. 

its very possible he joined another regiment before the MGC.  Davids research below is a very strong marker on his MGC details. 

 

Ideally we need a bit more from you to dig deeper. 

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/

Thankyou very much!

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, AndrewSid said:

 

Sparkle,

 

A good link below as background reading.  He should not have been sent overseas until he was 18 years and 6 months old.  I think that puts us at August 1916 plus six months so eligible to deploy from Jan 1917 at the v earliest. However we of course know he didn’t deploy until he was with the MGC and the number tells us fairly accurate when he joined them. 

its very possible he joined another regiment before the MGC.  Davids research below is a very strong marker on his MGC details. 

 

Ideally we need a bit more from you to dig deeper. 

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/

Probably best bet is to look at the medal roll - his page, one before and one after which basically give ten - fifteen numbers above and below him. There are several casualties and several discharged and these are usually a better source of information due to pension cards, dependents pensions, and CWGC records revealing company or battalion. One thing with MGC numbers is it's misleading to think close numbers will be in the same unit - certainly by that time. As 115578 Gerald George Burford has an extensive record it shows he was sent over to base depot at Camiers and after three weeks posted out to an MG Company.  All these men probably went through a similar process and so would end up scattered to whichever units required replacements. 

115578 Silver War Badge  records shows enlistment 12.9.1916 and discharged 27.3.1919 still only 20 years old. 

115585 Harry Cheek Killed in Action  1.1.1918 aged 20

115586 William Edward Daniels  Killed in Action 10.1.1918  aged 20. He got married 16.9.1917 (aged18) and gave his profession as "Lance Corporal MGC"

115593 Another discharge. His Silver War Badge record shows enlistment 30.9.1916 and discharged 13.5.1919 still only 20 years old.

So Leonard is fitting into that pattern of age and enlistment  then transfer to MGC.

Edited 28 November , 2021 by david murdoch