John Arthur Stuart Tillard MC OBE - Acting Major 1918

[oxlade134]

I'm researching this man who served from (cadet in 1908 Royal Military academy RE) and then in both wars in Signals roles with the Royal Engineers  in WW11. He was recognised several times in the war but I cant locate him anywhere specific until 1918. Its clear from his medal card he was in Italy and with from Gazette MID in 1918 the 23rd Signals Company plus he also earned a Italian Croce de Guerra and OBE in 1919. I would be interested why his signals work was recognised with MID and MC.

Regarding 1918 in Italy, I've looked at the war Diary for 23rd Signals Company and no mention of him but for that matter not much on staff of the Company, my question is given he was with the original Air line company of RE in 1910 and long term in that field was he likely to have been in the Divisional HQ staff for Italian operations. I also cant find a 23rd Division war diary for 1918-1919 is there one? 

A supplementary question is this photo of him I found in Ancestry and there is no date on it can anyone recognise his rank, cap badge as his progression after WW1 was Major, Brigadier Munitions Development Signals  between the wars and Ministry of Supply Signals Equipment in WW2 eventually Colonel I believe.

Edited 25 November , 2021 by oxlade134
correction

[Coldstreamer]

.

Edited 26 November , 2021 by Coldstreamer

[Coldstreamer]

Maybe he was in Italy after the war and that’s where the correspondence was sent to regarding his medals

[Coldstreamer]

Have you looked in the London Gazette for a citation for his military Cross? If he didn’t get a citation in the Gazette could be a general award

[oxlade134]

4 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said:

Have you looked in the London Gazette for a citation for his military Cross? If he didn’t get a citation in the Gazette could be a general award

•  John was awarded the Military Cross. Gazette No. 30450. Military Cross in 1917.  Gazette Date: 28/12/1917 page 48 no citation. He was in Italy during 1918 otherwise why was he awarded Croce de Guerra by Italian Govt.

[ForeignGong]

Recipients of foreign awards did not necessarily serve in the country that the award came from. It was up to the WO to allocate the awards, so someone serving in France could be awarded any of the other allies awards.

The biggest example was the USA , very few British commonwealth service people served in America.

[oxlade134]

6 minutes ago, ForeignGong said:

Recipients of foreign awards did not necessarily serve in the country that the award came from. It was up to the WO to allocate the awards, so someone serving in France could be awarded any of the other allies awards.

The biggest example was the USA , very few British commonwealth service people served in America.

The 1919 MID Gazette entry says 23rd Signals Coy from 26 February to 14 September 1918. So he was in Italy it seems, could he have been have been HQ staff though as his expertise seems to have been in Signals Equipment development and supply, His Army career between wars was Royal Corps of Signals ,  RAF (attachment) then Lieut. Colonel appointed Assistant Director (Signals) to Department of the Director-General of Munitions Production. Committees and Miscellaneous Establishments. Royal Engineer and Signals Board. Associate Member. In WW2 Acting Brigadier at Ministry of Supply Signals Equipment.

[corisande]

FWIW

[BullerTurner]

3 hours ago, oxlade134 said:

•  John was awarded the Military Cross. Gazette No. 30450. Military Cross in 1917.  Gazette Date: 28/12/1917 page 48 no citation. He was in Italy during 1918 otherwise why was he awarded Croce de Guerra by Italian Govt.

An awful lot of Russian decorations, for officers and soldiers, were pumped into the BEF for example?  They were “allocated” to the BEF en masse and then “awarded” to their recipients according to a system based on logic and sympathy!  For example one soldier received the medal of St George, having been unlucky with regard to a Military Medal.  Others received a Russian award in a sort of military BOGOF deal, say after receiving an MC or an MM.

 

 

[kenf48]

20 hours ago, oxlade134 said:

I would be interested why his signals work was recognised with MID and MC.

 

The MC was in the New Year Honours for 1917/18. The recognition for the award is on Page 17,

"SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 1 JANUARY, 1918. 17
His Majesty the KING- has been graciously pleased to approve of the undermentioned re-wards for distinguished service in theField."Dated 1st Jan. 1918 —

The list begins with Bar to the DSO and then other decorations in order of precedence, unfortunately that is about all you will gain from the LG.

Similarly the recognition for his MID will be in the preamble to the relevant Supplement although I note the press cutting states he was mentioned five times.

Another was Haig's Third Despatch published May 1917

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30077/supplement/4879

The preamble simply states 'submitting names worthy of special mention'

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30077/supplement/4869

Clearly he did not initially go on active service with the 23rd Division but was part of the original BEF ('A' Airline Section ?) landing in France 11th August 1914.

The MIC is odd in that two GOC submit a list showing his entitlement to the 1914 Star so we can, clearly place him with 23rd Division on the 18th December 1917 (black ink).

I guess the second entry was for the Clasp and Roses; and his entitlement to the Emblem for his MID both submitted in 1920.

As mentioned foreign awards came down the chain of command (as did New Year and Birthday Honours).  They were occasionally awarded in the field but that is relatively rare.

The War Diaries for the Italian Campaign have not been digitised (given your location you would need a researcher to copy them for you less expensive than a TNA quote). They are listed here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C138578

The Official History for the campaign is probably online, you could do a forum search in virtual library, otherwise there are a couple of decent books. 

 

20 hours ago, oxlade134 said:

A supplementary question is this photo of him I found in Ancestry and there is no date on it can anyone recognise his rank, cap badge as his progression after WW1 was Major, Brigadier Munitions Development Signals  between the wars and Ministry of Supply Signals Equipment in WW2 eventually Colonel I believe.

As for the photograph as he does not appear to be wearing any medal ribbons therefore I suspect it was prior to 1918.

Too small to distinguish but the cap badge probably has the original 'GR' cipher in the centre surmounted by the King's Crown.  

No badges of rank visible on the epaulettes, so probably on the cuff, but I don't do uniforms. 

 

[oxlade134]

9 hours ago, corisande said:

FWIW

Thanks 

8 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The MC was in the New Year Honours for 1917/18. The recognition for the award is on Page 17,

"SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 1 JANUARY, 1918. 17
His Majesty the KING- has been graciously pleased to approve of the undermentioned re-wards for distinguished service in theField."Dated 1st Jan. 1918 —

The list begins with Bar to the DSO and then other decorations in order of precedence, unfortunately that is about all you will gain from the LG.

Similarly the recognition for his MID will be in the preamble to the relevant Supplement although I note the press cutting states he was mentioned five times.

Another was Haig's Third Despatch published May 1917

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30077/supplement/4879

The preamble simply states 'submitting names worthy of special mention'

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30077/supplement/4869

Clearly he did not initially go on active service with the 23rd Division but was part of the original BEF ('A' Airline Section ?) landing in France 11th August 1914.

The MIC is odd in that two GOC submit a list showing his entitlement to the 1914 Star so we can, clearly place him with 23rd Division on the 18th December 1917 (black ink).

I guess the second entry was for the Clasp and Roses; and his entitlement to the Emblem for his MID both submitted in 1920.

As mentioned foreign awards came down the chain of command (as did New Year and Birthday Honours).  They were occasionally awarded in the field but that is relatively rare.

The War Diaries for the Italian Campaign have not been digitised (given your location you would need a researcher to copy them for you less expensive than a TNA quote). They are listed here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C138578

The Official History for the campaign is probably online, you could do a forum search in virtual library, otherwise there are a couple of decent books. 

 

As for the photograph as he does not appear to be wearing any medal ribbons therefore I suspect it was prior to 1918.

Too small to distinguish but the cap badge probably has the original 'GR' cipher in the centre surmounted by the King's Crown.  

No badges of rank visible on the epaulettes, so probably on the cuff, but I don't do uniforms. 

 

Thank you for taking the time to go through his medal card and pointing out service date for 23rd Div . OAP so will have to live with what I can find in the GWF or elsewhere.