Major Ferguson 43rd Batt AIF Australian, Map 62c NE, help please

[Saxonhunter]

I was hoping someone more adept at researching WW1 soldiers could potentially help me.

I am researching a map, 62c NE, that is clearly written Major Ferguson 43 Batt.  The map is for a section due east of Peronne, France where both the 41st and 43rd Infantry Battalions took part (I think), as part of the 3rd Australian Division.

I can't find a Major Ferguson listed with the 43rd.  I can find a Major Thomas Ferguson listed with the 41st.  Could this be the same person, and if so why would the AWM records clearly show the 41st for him, yet the actual map have the 43rd written on it?  Would the 43rd have temporarily borrowed someone from the 41st as needed?  Is this ever done?  

I found a George Harold Ferguson in the 43rd, but rank of CQMS, which is a long ways off from Major.

To complicate things, I did find a Major Ferguson in the 43rd Canadian Infantry Battalion, but nothing suggests that unit ever got anywhere near Peronne or Bellicourt so I don't think that is the right person.  

Any help from the forum would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

[WhiteStarLine]

Dave,

I've read all of the unit war diaries for these battalions and for their parent, Third AIF Division but it was a few years back, so just some general comments:

• The map does cover the 3rd AIF Division advance from Peronne to the start of them breaching the Hindenburg Line.
• The Division had a lot of hard fighting left but had been depleted in its part of Peronne Mt St Quentin.  It still had the attacks on Roisel and the Hindenburg Line ahead of it.  Certainly for the latter there was some substitution of companies and even battalions from other divisions in the Australia Corps, just as had occurred near Bouchavesnes a few weeks prior.  Therefore it is plausible that a company / or company commander could have been temporarily detached.  However, this is a significant event, so it would be in the unit war diary for at least one of the battalions.
• It was a tumultuous time with the attempted disbandment of the 42nd Battalion and the subsequent mutiny that went on for days.  There was a temporary reshuffle of officers (who did not mutiny) and this would have a flow on with temporary postings. 
• Finally, from left field, if it is in his handwriting, it is authoritative.  It it was written by someone perhaps distributing a lot of maps for one of the many conferences they attended, it may just be a mistake - right name, wrong battalion! 

 

[Saxonhunter]

Thank you so much for your time.  I really appreciate it.  It's so hard to second guess something from 100+ years ago, but I think it's probably a fairly short leap anecdotally that someone wrote 43rd on the map rather than 41st, as the AWM and Discovering Anzacs sites only lists one Major Ferguson.  I think it's less likely that the official documents have him in the wrong battalion.  Perhaps he was detached temporarily, due to all the chaos occurring at that time and need to replenish troops and leadership.  Maybe the diaries will highlight that. 

Are you aware of any British activity in that same section?  Or was that a 100% Australian controlled area?  My fear is that there was a British officer running a concurrent operation in that same sector, and in fact the Major Ferguson is British.

All signs point to him being Australian based on the maps and timing, and a second Major Ferguson operating in the exact same area at the same time in a sister battalion, I think would be more unlikely than it being a designation error of some type.  However, it's impossible to avoid the fact that it says 43rd on it in "someone's" handwriting.   

I'll keep digging, but truly appreciate your take on the matter.

Dave

[WhiteStarLine]

1 hour ago, Saxonhunter said:

Are you aware of any British activity in that same section?  Or was that a 100% Australian controlled area?

@Saxonhunter, post an image of the map date (eg trenches correct to ).  If it is 1918 then the Australia Corps under Monash (including American 27th and 30th Divisions) had seven divisions in the area and the Third Division advanced on the axis of Peronne - Doingt - Marquaix - Roisel - Templeux - Hargicourt then Bony / Bellicourt.  If we can confirm it is 1918 it is highly unlikely to be anyone else but your man.

Next step would be to study the unit war diaries for 41st and 43rd, which I am happy to skim read only.  You'd expect a reference in gaining and losing unit for a sub unit commander.  It might be in an operation order but we're talking about an entire month of advance to contact, capture of Roisel and Hindenburg Line.

Final step (all yours!) is to look at the left and right flanking Divisions - did they have a 41st or 43rd Battalion in the Order of Battle.  Remember you are interested in units operating in 62c NE.

A Record of the Battles and Engagements of the British Armies 1914 1918

[WhiteStarLine]

Dave, here is a map from Monash's "Australian Victories in France" showing that his area roughly covered the bottom 2/3 of 62cNE and III Corps the top third.

[TEW]

There's another topic which mentions four USA platoons being assigned to 43rd Australians in late 1918.

Could Ferguson be American?

TEW

[WhiteStarLine]

2 minutes ago, TEW said:

being assigned to 43rd Australians in late 1918

It's a good suggestion.  Note Le Hamel is Sheet 62d and 25km west (not far from Villers-Bretonneux) and was a July operation.  September 1918 had 27th and 30th USA Divisions but none of them had sub units under the command of Australian battalions. 

[Saxonhunter]

Thank you again!  That's funny, I literally just got that book, but my copy is black and white and the pictures and images are extremely hard to decipher.  Your map is crystal clear in comparison to the one in the book..

I will get some pics uploaded before long.  I know for a fact that of the two maps I have one for sure states Trenches Corrected From Information Received up to 21 8 18, and that is the one that is signed to Major Ferguson.  I'll have to re-confirm what is on the other map.

And I think you helped me on a different map a while back and pointed me to the diaries in the AWM.  I've been reading them, but to be honest I miss a lot trying to decode the handwriting.  I've gone through a couple of the diaries so far and haven't been lucky enough to find a notation, but I'll keep at it.  

Good call on checking the flanking divisions.  What's the line?  "It's like finding a needle in a stack of needles"?   

 

[Saxonhunter]

And just a quick follow up.  The maps in question were sold to me from an individual out of Queensland, so that would suggest having been brought back to Australia after the war, hopefully by a Digger.  However, place of purchase doesn't mean much.  

Not to go down the rabbit hole, but I purchased a 4th map which I acquired out of Australia, and was told the person was an Australia soldier in WW1 so I figured this fit right in with the collection.  The seller was partially right.  That map turned out to be to an officer in WW1 for the British and that was his map from WW1, but he then moved to Australia after WW1, and then joined the 2nd AIF for service in WW2 ending as a Major.  So while still an amazing story, the map was for BEF service, not AIF service, so doesn't quite fit in the collection.  That was a fun map to research.   The path for determining who that one belonged to started with the seller vaguely thinking the guys first name might have been "Reg" and that he was probably buried in a certain cemetery.  I found his grave listing, then his AWM record, which had his wife's name on it.  The wife was the the secretary of the father of  the seller of the map, so all the pieces fit.  I looked into his records some and the map covered exactly where his unit would have been based on the date.  It was a fun one to research out.  

[Saxonhunter]

Sorry it’s taken me a while to get back.  The maps were in transit to me, but are now in my hot little hands.    I am pleasantly surprised now.   The map in question in my opinion must be, without a doubt, to an Australian unit fighting east of Péronne.  And Major Ferguson 41st battalion AIF as per the AWM must be the man, even if their is a bit of confusion.  There are two maps....62c dated December 1917, marked to Ferguson.  A 2nd trench map, not named to Ferguson but is the sister map to the named map as it came from the same person in Queensland,  is 62c ne dated August 1918, field survey corrected 28-8-18 (corrected from information received up to 21-8-18).  The trench map shows the 41st, 44th and 43rd in writing next to the divisional boundary.  The map proves the 41st and 43rd were working within yards of one another in August 1918.  Just no way Ferguson is not the the one listed in the AWM.  The mystery to me is who wrote 43rd and why, but I’m satisfied it’s him.  To my immense pleasure, I have five  random maps, but three are my most worked maps,  and amazingly all of them cover 62c in some fashion.  One 62c is marked to the  8th Aus field ambulance dated 1917 as well, and then 62c and 62c ne to the 43rd/41st.  I think it’s an amazing stroke of luck to have a worked map for the medical corps to compare to the exact same area for the infantry for the same battle!  

[Saxonhunter]

Here are there pics from 62c identified to Ferguson 

Four pics of 62c ne showing the different units identified.  

[Saxonhunter]

And just for fun and comparison are  two pics of the medical map 62c identified to LT Col A R Clayton DSO

[WhiteStarLine]

2 hours ago, Saxonhunter said:

it’s an amazing stroke of luck to have a worked map for the medical corps to compare to the exact same area for the infantry for the same battl

Well done and thanks for getting back to us.  It is in amazing series of artefacts to still have!  His annotation K.8.d is possibly in preparation for the attack on Roisel.  You can just read the sign  'Roisel' on the background of this photo my grandfather took when it had been cleared - his webbing is visible on the rear of the m10 Morser.

[Saxonhunter]

That is an amazing photo!   Thank you for sharing it.   Hard to say if it was accident or purposeful, but your grandfather did you a huge service by having the town name in the background of the photo.  Can’t argue location on that one:  looking at the trench map it’s amazing to think about the geographic obstacles they pushed through, and then to see that monster cannon as an example of German stubbornness to not give up land, just makes it come to life that much more.  I can’t imagine what your grandfather and those young men did during that war.  Thanks again for sharing the family photo.  Amazing addition!  It’s very probable that my maps, to some degree or another, influenced the events and people around your grandfather as he went to work!  Small world! 

[Saxonhunter]

Just to build out Roisel a little more here is the area leading to Roisel from the west on the trench map.   K8d is identified here as well with a a letter C.  Wonder what that stood for?  Capture maybe?   Command?  Roisel is the town on the right but my photo clipped the name off.  Had to have been ground your grandfather walked.  And to see the German trenches outlined!  Very cool.  I did observer that the vast majority of the trench system was to the east and the to the west of Perone.   Basically outside of and surrounding it.  I wonder if artillery would have been in or near the town basically, with the trenches serving as defense?  Just a theory based on the map and the photo of the artillery piece so close to town.  Did he take any more pictures during those days around that area? 

[Saxonhunter]

I’d love to know what the progressive numbers were in reference to that were written down and circled.  Have to be objectives.  And what the crossed flag annotations mean.  I need a key!  ***