Please help with medal and rank badge ID for a Sherwood Forester Sergt

[mikebriggs]

Dear all

I'm hoping that you can help with some ID on this fine looking fellow.

I was thinking a Colour Sergeant Instructor with the following medals (from left)

India General Service, QSA, LSGC medals....

It's a Matlock photographer and he has a connection to a 2VB Derbyshire man/family from Wirksworth.

Many thanks Mike

[FROGSMILE]

Yes he’s a colour sergeant instructor of musketry (regular permanent staff) with a Volunteer Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters (Derbyshire- later Notts & Derby) Regiment (pre 1908), photographed sometime between the 2nd Boer War and WW1.  He has a musketry prize badge on his left lower sleeve, but I can’t see which one (crown or star, although former seems to fit best).  I’ll leave it to others such as @RNCVRto comment on the medals.  I imagine that he was probably re engaged in one capacity or another during WW1.  At  the time of the photo his erstwhile regular battalion colleagues were probably returned/returning to their former facing colour of green, but not all the auxiliary units had changed by the beginning of WW1.

NB.  It’s interesting that because he is rated as a staff sergeant (sergeant on the battalion HQ staff) he has a staff cap badge, i.e. without title scroll but with an enamelled centre.  It seems likely that these were actually officers pattern collar badges or cap insignia.  Collar badges were white metal for VB ORs.
I am sure that @OLD ROBIN HOOD , @john gregory and @Simon J Emmerson will all be interested to see these photos of a Derbyshire SNCO.

 

Edited 25 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[mikebriggs]

Thank you - that's very helpful - as always - I have the names of the Regular permanent Staff for 2VB and later 6th Sherwoods (1908-14) - so I might try to cross reference the medal roles with those men and try to come up with a candidate(s)

Thanks again Mike

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, mikebriggs said:

Thank you - that's very helpful - as always - I have the names of the Regular permanent Staff for 2VB and later 6th Sherwoods (1908-14) - so I might try to cross reference the medal roles with those men and try to come up with a candidate(s)

Thanks again Mike

I’m glad to help Mike and hope that you find the man’s details, it will be interesting to see if one of our genealogical detectives can trace his eventual fate.

[RNCVR]

Yes, Mike is correct concerning the Colour Serg't medals - India General Service medal with two campaign/battle clasps, Queens South Africa medal with 4 clasps, & Army LS medal King Edward VII head.

Be really great to ID him, its a super photograph! I love his 'tache!

 

 

Edited 25 November , 2021 by RNCVR

[PRC]

16 hours ago, mikebriggs said:

It's a Matlock photographer and he has a connection to a 2VB Derbyshire man/family from Wirksworth.

Pure speculation at this point but wonder if this man from the 1911 Census of England & Wales is worth considering. Given his stated age he would have been born circa 1880, could easily have got 12 years in of a Regular Army enlistment, and would have been old enough to serve in the Anglo-Boer war. He was then living at Wirksworth.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Genes Reunited also have some service records for a John Turner who enlisted at Derby in the Militia, with rank shown as Boy, on the 6th July 1895. He was then aged 15 years and 3 months, was born Belper, Derbyshire, and joined the 3rd Battalion, Sherwood Foresters. He was a Methodist, and already had several tattoos as identifying marks.

On the 14th August 1895 he enlisted in the Regular Army. Militia Records are in the WO96 series.

FindMyPast have indexed additional service records for a John Turner born Belper circa 1881 who enlisted 1895. I don't have a subscription, but as they don't appear to be turning up in the pre-war WO97 series I can only assume they carry on into the Great War Period.

Taking a step-back, the Anglo-Boer War website doesn't have the medal rolls for the Sherwood Foresters transcribed, but has two other records for a J. Turner. One, regimental number 5715, drowned. The other has regimental number 5939, a Private who was wounded serving with the 4th Battalion at Roodeval on the 7th June 1900.

Paul Nixons' Army service number site hasn't covered the 4th Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters. Nor was that part of the four digit regimental number range in use by the Volunteer Service Companys raised for the Anglo-Boer War. If he was a regular attached to the 4th Battalion then that number was too late for an 1895 enlistment. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2011/08/sherwood-foresters-1st-2nd-battalions.html

There is no Great War MiC for a Turner with that service number.

Hopefully if those surviving service records do relate to the right man, (or at least one worthy of exploring further as a possible match), then the correct service number and whether he saw any overseas service can be identified.

The Militia records recorded him as a Cotton Spinner, then resident at Canada Street, Cow Hill, Belper. On the civil records side, on the 1891 Census of England and Wales, there is a John Turner, aged 11 and a part time Mill Hand, who was recorded living in a dwelling on "Canada", Belper. Parents were Samuel, (28, Nail Maker, born Belper), and Hannah, (29, Embroiderer, born Belper). The couple have another son and a niece living with them. On the 1881 Census of England and Wales the couple, along with John, aged 1, were recorded living at Cow Hill, Belper. There is no obvious match for John on the 1901 Census of England & Wales - and one of the many reasons for that is that he was serving in South Africa. His parents were then recorded living a 7 Markeaton Street, Derby. By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales they had moved to Nottingham. The couple state they had been married 31 years, but that doesn't readily bring up any great matches for a marriage in England & Wales, especially as the most likely match in the civil birth records for this candidate is a John Turner, mothers' maiden name Watson, whose birth was registered in the Belper District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1880.

Meanwhile the 1911 Census, taken on the 2nd April 1911, shows John Turner has been married 5 years to Alice Turner, and the couple have had just the 1 child, Edward, aged 4 and born Derby.

May be a co-incidence but a John Turner married an Alice Lee in the Derby District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1905. And the birth of an Edward Turner, mothers' maiden name Lee, was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Derby District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1907.

Wirksworth fell within the Belper Civil Registration District for the recording of Births, Marriages and Deaths. Again, may be a co-incidence, but the birth of a Gwendoline Turner, mothers' maiden name Lee, was registered in the Belper District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1911.

A check of the newspapers available via FindMyPast brings up this snippet -

Hopefully the fuller article will be a bit more informative.

But assuming that in fact it is him who was a Prisoner of War does lead to this record card at the International Committee of the Red Cross website - https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/443835/3/2/

Sergeant Major John Turner was captured at Lille on the 20th October 1914 serving with the 18th Brigade of the 6th Division. These are the formations in which the 2nd Battalion was serving. A second report from March 1918 records him with the 2nd Battalion and with Regimental number 5169.

Paul Nixons site shows service number 5169 would have been issued between the 15th January 1895, (4996) and the 21st February 1896, (5358)

MiC shows John Turner first landed in France on the 8th September 1914 - Long, Long Trail has the 2nd Battalion landing on the 11th so could be an embarkation date.

No gurantee this is a match for the man in the photograph, but I put this candidate up for others to flesh out \ knock down as appropriate.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 25 November , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[mikebriggs]

4 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Yes, Mike is correct concerning the Colour Serg't medals - India General Service medal with two campaign/battle clasps, Queens South Africa medal with 4 clasps, & Army LS medal King Edward VII head.

Be really great to ID him, its a super photograph! I love his 'tache!

 

 

Many thanks for the confirmation - its great to know I'm on the right track. By the way know that the medals are referred to as QSA and KSA, but the actual medal roles are either

1) South Africa Medal Army order 1st April 1901

2) Queens South Africa Medal and Clasps under Army Order 233 1st October 1902

 

Is 2) now referred to as the KSA medal?

thanks

Mike

[mikebriggs]

41 minutes ago, PRC said:

Pure speculation at this point but wonder if this man from the 1911 Census of England & Wales is worth considering. Given his stated age he would have been born circa 1880, could easily have got 12 years in of a Regular Army enlistment, and would have been old enough to serve in the Anglo-Boer war. He was then living at Wirksworth.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Genes Reunited also have some service records for a John Turner who enlisted at Derby in the Militia, with rank shown as Boy, on the 6th July 1895. He was then aged 15 years and 3 months, was born Belper, Derbyshire, and joined the 3rd Battalion, Sherwood Foresters. He was a Methodist, and already had several tattoos as identifying marks.

On the 14th August 1895 he enlisted in the Regular Army. Militia Records are in the WO96 series.

FindMyPast have indexed additional service records for a John Turner born Belper circa 1881 who enlisted 1895. I don't have a subscription, but as they don't appear to be turning up in the pre-war WO97 series I can only assume they carry on into the Great War Period.

Taking a step-back, the Anglo-Boer War website doesn't have the medal rolls for the Sherwood Foresters transcribed, but has two other records for a J. Turner. One, regimental number 5715, drowned. The other has regimental number 5939, a Private who was wounded serving with the 4th Battalion at Roodeval on the 7th June 1900.

Paul Nixons' Army service number site hasn't covered the 4th Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters. Nor was that part of the four digit regimental number range in use by the Volunteer Service Companys raised for the Anglo-Boer War. If he was a regular attached to the 4th Battalion then that number was too late for an 1895 enlistment. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2011/08/sherwood-foresters-1st-2nd-battalions.html

There is no Great War MiC for a Turner with that service number.

Hopefully if those surviving service records do relate to the right man, (or at least one worthy of exploring further as a possible match), then the correct service number and whether he saw any overseas service can be identified.

The Militia records recorded him as a Cotton Spinner, then resident at Canada Street, Cow Hill, Belper. On the civil records side, on the 1891 Census of England and Wales, there is a John Turner, aged 11 and a part time Mill Hand, who was recorded living in a dwelling on "Canada", Belper. Parents were Samuel, (28, Nail Maker, born Belper), and Hannah, (29, Embroiderer, born Belper). The couple have another son and a niece living with them. On the 1881 Census of England and Wales the couple, along with John, aged 1, were recorded living at Cow Hill, Belper. There is no obvious match for John on the 1901 Census of England & Wales - and one of the many reasons for that is that he was serving in South Africa. His parents were then recorded living a 7 Markeaton Street, Derby. By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales they had moved to Nottingham. The couple state they had been married 31 years, but that doesn't readily bring up any great matches for a marriage in England & Wales, especially as the most likely match in the civil birth records for this candidate is a John Turner, mothers' maiden name Watson, whose birth was registered in the Belper District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1880.

Meanwhile the 1911 Census, taken on the 2nd April 1911, shows John Turner has been married 5 years to Alice Turner, and the couple have had just the 1 child, Edward, aged 4 and born Derby.

May be a co-incidence but a John Turner married an Alice Lee in the Derby District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1905. And the birth of an Edward Turner, mothers' maiden name Lee, was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Derby District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1907.

Wirksworth fell within the Belper Civil Registration District for the recording of Births, Marriages and Deaths. Again, may be a co-incidence, but the birth of a Gwendoline Turner, mothers' maiden name Lee, was registered in the Belper District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1911.

A check of the newspapers available via FindMyPast brings up this snippet -

Hopefully the fuller article will be a bit more informative.

But assuming that in fact it is him who was a Prisoner of War does lead to this record card at the International Committee of the Red Cross website - https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/443835/3/2/

Sergeant Major John Turner was captured at Lille on the 20th October 1914 serving with the 18th Brigade of the 6th Division. These are the formations in which the 2nd Battalion was serving. A second report from March 1918 records him with the 2nd Battalion and with Regimental number 5169.

Paul Nixons site shows service number 5169 would have been issued between the 15th January 1895, (4996) and the 21st February 1896, (5358)

MiC shows John Turner first landed in France on the 8th September 1914 - Long, Long Trail has the 2nd Battalion landing on the 11th so could be an embarkation date.

No gurantee this is a match for the man in the photograph, but I put this candidate up for others to flesh out \ knock down as appropriate.

Cheers,
Peter

Evening Peter

Many thanks for this - excellent research!

He is on may list of potentials - 5169 J Tunrer was posted to E (Wirksworth) Company in 1910 and returned to 2nd Battalion in 1912, but unfortunately he didn't serve in the Tirah Campaign.

 

cheers

Mike

[mikebriggs]

These are the Sergeant Instructors serving with 1/6th in 1912 and those that I've managed to put an name to, unfortunately he isn't amongst them...

[RNCVR]

52 minutes ago, mikebriggs said:

Many thanks for the confirmation - its great to know I'm on the right track. By the way know that the medals are referred to as QSA and KSA, but the actual medal roles are eit

Is 2) now referred to as the KSA medal?

thanks, Mike

Yes, KSA is King (Edward VII) South Africa medal, it only had 2 year clasps- South Africa 1901, & South Africa 1902. Not all recipients of QSA qualified for KSA. 

[SteveE]

On 25/11/2021 at 12:28, RNCVR said:

Yes, Mike is correct concerning the Colour Serg't medals - India General Service medal with two campaign/battle clasps, Queens South Africa medal with 4 clasps, & Army LS medal King Edward VII head.

On 25/11/2021 at 16:44, mikebriggs said:

5169 J Tunrer was posted to E (Wirksworth) Company in 1910 and returned to 2nd Battalion in 1912, but unfortunately he didn't serve in the Tirah Campaign.

Nor was Turner awarded the LSGC medal (certainly not in the timeframe for an Edward VII head).

Going through the LSGC Register for 1902-1912 and comparing it to the IGSM 1895 & South Africa QSA/KSA Rolls throws up only a single candidate that I can find (allowing for the possibility of Ancestry transcription errors) with that particular combination of medals i.e. a 2 clasp IGSM 1895, 4 clasp QSA and LSGC medal.

That candidate is 2170 Colour Sergeant Thomas Aldred.  He has the Punjab Frontier & Tirah clasps to the IGSM 1895,  QSA with clasps Cape Colony, Orange free State, Transvaal and SA02 and the LSGC medal awarded in 1907. 

His service record is also available on FMP but here's where there's a potential fly in the ointment.  His record shows that he was a 4th Bn. man before he enlisted into the regulars and was posted onto the Permanent Staff of the 4th Bn. after he finished his time with the 1st and 2nd Bns., no mention anywhere of the 6th Bn.

Steve

Edited 26 November , 2021 by SteveE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, mikebriggs said:

He is on may list of potentials - 5169 J Tunrer was posted to E (Wirksworth) Company in 1910 and returned to 2nd Battalion in 1912, but unfortunately he didn't serve in the Tirah Campaign.

Although possibly he was a good shot.

Just hope someone with full FMP \ BNA access can have a look at these newspaper items for you in case it sheds any light.

Actually there are quite a few references to the Wirksworth Territorials pre-war in the press sources on FMP - and that's just where the software has transcribed those words correctly.

Some may shed light on the exact area of instruction of these attached men - for example the edition of the Sheffield Daily Telegraph dated 14th August 1913 reports the previous days court appearance of Sergeant John Hardy, Drill Instructor of the Wirksworth and Matlock Territorials, (he was driving a cart without a light).

Hope that helps,
Peter

[mikebriggs]

Sorry - the thread has jumped ahead of my initial question and I should have said earlier that I do have his initials - I believe.

I'm slowly going through all the 2VB and 6th Battn Year books, which list all the Sergt Instructors and then cross referencing them with the Tirah, QSA (KSA) and LSGC medal rolls - but no one fully fits yet.

2905 E Pullen was my best guess up to date but the Initials don't fit and he has a KSA.......

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, SteveE said:

Nor was Turner awarded the LSGC medal (certainly not in the timeframe for an Edward VII head).

Going the through the LSGC Register for 1902-1912 and comparing it to the IGSM 1895 & South Africa QSA/KSA Rolls throws up only a single candidate that I can find (allowing for the possibility of Ancestry transcription errors) with that particular combination of medals i.e. a 2 clasp IGSM 1895, 4 clasp QSA and LSGC medal.

That candidate is 2170 Colour Sergeant Thomas Aldred.  He has the Punjab Frontier & Tirah clasps to the IGSM 1895,  QSA with clasps Cape Colony, Orange free State, Transvaal and SA02 and the LSGC medal awarded in 1907. 

His service record is also available on FMP but here's where there's a potential fly in the ointment.  His record shows that he was a 4th Bn. man before he enlisted into the regulars and was posted onto the Permanent Staff of the 4th Bn. after he finished his time with the 1st and 2nd Bns., no mention anywhere of the 6th Bn.

Steve

It’s not impossible that he was an instructor with the 4th Militia Battalion, who as auxiliaries also had musketry instructors on their permanent staff.  Shoulder titles on full dress were similar, but with a brass number (usually 3 or 4) in place of the embroidered thread V and number.  Other insignia would look identical in a B&W photograph.  The militia are often overlooked in such photos and yet their lives were busy, constantly running a cycle of basic training that not only provided auxiliaries seeded among the population, but was a constant source of recruits into the regular army, via militiamen who took a liking to a full time military life that they might not otherwise have considered.

 

 

Edited 25 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[mikebriggs]

On 25/11/2021 at 17:30, RNCVR said:

Yes, KSA is King (Edward VII) South Africa medal, it only had 2 year clasps- South Africa 1901, & South Africa 1902. Not all recipients of QSA qualified for KSA. 

Many thanks - I'm back on the hunt to ry and identify him!

On 25/11/2021 at 20:34, FROGSMILE said:

It’s not impossible that he was an instructor with the 4th Militia Battalion, who as auxiliaries also had musketry instructors on their permanent staff.  Shoulder titles on full dress were similar, but with a brass number (usually 3 or 4) in place of the embroidered thread V and number.  Other insignia would look identical in a B&W photograph.  The militia are often overlooked in such photos and yet their lives were busy, constantly running a cycle of basic training that not only provided auxiliaries seeded among the population, but was a constant source of recruits into the regular army, via militiamen who took a liking to a full time military life that they might not otherwise have considered.

 

 

Many thanks thats a good idea - its hard to tell from the photo, but could be a clothe badge with Derby written on it.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, mikebriggs said:

Many thanks - I'm back on the hunt to ry and identify him!

Many thanks thats a good idea - its hard to tell from the photo, but could be a clothe badge with Derby written on it.

It’s puzzling as it looks like the later NOTTS&DERBY type in a circle.