Bedford House- Chateau Rosenthal April 1915, different places?

[David_Blanchard]

I  am aware there is a thread on the forum, from 2009 concerned with Bedford House and Chateau Rosenthal:

 

 

This  thread and the CWGC register for Bedford House Cemetery equates Bedford House with Chateau Rosenthal. However, from looking at the war diary for the 1st Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry for April 1915 it would appear that these two places were different, despite the fact they were probably close to each other. Just wondering if anyone has come across a map which may show Chateau Rosenthal and Bedford House as two separate entities or provide an explanation.

 

 

David 

 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

David

On the first page of your thread about Railway Dugouts there are some sketches and maps. Your post 07/05 and Bob Davies 09/05. I posted a map from the March 1915 WD of 5 Div HQ GS.

There are other maps in the April 1915 WD of 5 Div HQ GS (WO 95/1512 Ancestry p 389 and 393/873 which appear to show a Chateau just to the North of Bedford House, both in Square 26 a The maps are dated 1915.

Brian

[Bob Davies]

14 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

On the first page of your thread about Railway Dugouts

Thank you Brian, I knew somewhere there were pictures of maps, I just could not remember where. Yes David I am quite certain that they are two different places, during the search for the Railway dugouts I looked into it as it had me wondering. I suppose it only takes one incorrect sentence to be written on the internet and the whole world shares it, which looks to be what has happened with Bedford house. Best Wishes, Bob.

[JWK]

There's this sketch:

Looks like two separate buildings.

http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/local/maps/es_vol2_pdf_maps/es_vol2_02.pdf

[David_Blanchard]

Excellent guys, thanks very much replies. Impressive map which clearly points out the difference between the two.

 

Btw had a good time in Ypres in early November apart from the hassle with testing - one of my best photographs here. And one of Bedford House Cemetery.

 

David 

Edited 24 November , 2021 by David_Blanchard

[David_Blanchard]

Looking at the map posted above and a map posted on the thread I mentioned from 2009 it looks as though Bedford House may be the buildings marked ‘Hovenier’ which  means gardener or landscaper  in Flemish. 

Edited 24 November , 2021 by David_Blanchard

[Bob Davies]

Glad to hear you had a good time David. 1/5th South Staffs war diary for end of August start of Sept 1915 gives the two names and would seem to say they are different places. Along with Railway dugouts. I have that many war diaries and no organization ;-) WO 95 2686/1. It is a big download but you only need the first part. Bob.

[Bob Davies]

1/5th South Staffs here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14055297

[JWK]

1 Chateau/Castle

2 Stables

3 Pond

4 Icehouse

5 Deerpark

6 Canal

 

Hovenier = Gardener

And "Hof" to the right of it: probably the kitchengarden (or a farm)

[David_Blanchard]

Bob and Brian,

I have just about finished the first chapter of my work on Medical Evacuation from Hill 60. I will send you this on if you like. Brian can you send me your email in a pm, if you are interested. 

 

David 

Edited 24 November , 2021 by David_Blanchard

[Bob Davies]

5 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

I have just about finished the first chapter of my work

Yes, please send it on David, thanks.

 

11 minutes ago, JWK said:

1 Chateau/Castle

2 Stables

3 Pond

4 Icehouse

5 Deerpark

6 Canal

Thanks for the translation JWK.

[brianmorris547]

9 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

Bob and Brian,

I have just about finished the first chapter of my work on Medical Evacuation from Hill 60. I will send you this on if you like. Brian can you send me your email in a pm, if you are interested. 

 

David 

David

PM sent. Thank you.

Brian

[brianmorris547]

Courtesy TNA WO 95/2279 - Various Infantry Brigades - 28 Div - 85 Infantry Brigade. Full map Verbrandenmolen Ancestry p 449/693. In the July 1915 WD of 8 Middlesex.

Brian

[Bob Davies]

On 24/11/2021 at 16:02, David_Blanchard said:

I  am aware there is a thread on the forum, from 2009 concerned with Bedford House and Chateau Rosenthal:

David, while looking for other stuff I came across mentions of work being done at Bedford House by the 1/2  North Midland Coy RE. (46 NM Division) Some are making dugouts at Bedford House, some maintaining the light railway, others at Blawe Poort Farm SP and others at Railway embankment. Dated to September 1915. SP from what I can gather is 'strong point' WD is WO 95 2677-1_1 Best Wishes, Bob.

[brianmorris547]

On 13/12/1915 446 FC of 50 Div RE moved to the Ypres area. From the Co WD 14/12/1915 "1 & 2 Sections to Bedford House (Chateau Rosendal) to work in front line". Reports of Bedford House being shelled. One Sapper was later buried at Bedford House. 

Brian

[ianshuter]

Useful thread, I was researching the death of Pvt CLARENCE CHARLES ARTHUR ALBERT EDWARD CAPERS (easily the longest name I have seen) of 15th Bn Royal Warwickshire who was KIA on 26 Oct 1917. The war diary shows them in the line at Bedford House and mentions that they attacked Chateau ... I wondered which Chateau and viola up came this thread, thank you.