Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Hello again. Last week I posted a couple of photographs of two relatives who both, as it turned out, died in the Great War. A number of people on this forum helped enormously in helping me inform a very elderly relative which soldier was which in their respective photos and loads of other information about their service. This information brought tears of both sadness and joy- so thanks again Now, I've been asked , by the same relative, to try to find out any other information relating to his uncle and my gt grandfather. We have no photo and only the following information. John Hall 2nd battalion DLI 25417 MIA 16/09/1916 Theipval Memorial Is there much else that can be learned of this chap and his time in the war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 His wife lodged a claim for a widow's pension. This payment mainly ceased when she re-married (the child element continued).https://www.fold3.com/image/668819971?terms=25417,hall Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Wow, the boy George was my Grandfather. Looks like he was entitled to money? Pity he was sent to live with his aunts shortly after the second marriage. Thanks Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swinesheadvillage Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Hi Mark John Hall is remembered on a remarkable artefact commemorating 25 men of 2 DLI killed at the Quadrilateral near Gincy on 15th/16th September 1916. The website comments that it was an original grave marker, it is now held by the DLI Museum. http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=7060 Kind Regards Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Craig beat me to the above pension card! - The reverse of it shows her new husband was Alfred SMALL, Rivetter. She got a £48.9.8 remarriage gratuity of which £46.18.6 was paid to her with £1.11.0 invested in War Savings Certificates [Government saving certificates intended to pay interest to her] :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Wow, a small fortune! Apparently, the new husband didn't want any boys from the previous marriage in the house so my poor grandfather was sent to live with aunts. Bet he never saw a penny of that pension. Thanks Derek 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 8 minutes ago, Mark Thompson 21 said: Wow, the boy George was my Grandfather. Looks like he was entitled to money? The money, a dependant child's pension allowance, would be paid to his mother - typically until the child reached 16 years old when the allowance stopped If he went to live elsewhere another guardian could claim it but we can't see that on the card. Unfortunately all the main detail will have been in a Pension Award file which would have been destroyed once its use was ended - that looks like the claim ended and was made DEAD, 1930 [Looks likely when the younger child reached 16] :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Would like to think it was passed on to the relative that brought him up but I have my doubts. He had to grow up without his mam or dad. Very sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 3 minutes ago, Mark Thompson 21 said: Wow, a small fortune! Your GGM was lucky [or maybe not] to get the majority of the remarriage gratuity as cash. It was qute common for the majority of the RG to be put into WSC to try and keep it out of the hands of the new husband. Rather seems to have depended on how the Local War Pensions Committee/MoP seemed to feel about him and his intentions. We can see the card is stamped as Noted for Novel - so the claim got some special consideration/calculation, quite possibly at the time of her remarriage. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Yes I saw that and wondered what it meant. I'm busy trying to decipher what is written in red ink on the card! Awful handwriting 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 3 minutes ago, Mark Thompson 21 said: I'm busy trying to decipher what is written in red ink on the card! Awful handwriting 😂 It's probably not as bad a some - but I am going to leave you to it! ;-) As for the payments - varied over time as a new Royal Warrant on Pay and Pensions came into play with enhanced rates and then remarriage removed the widow's component 18/6 = 10/- [W] plus 5/- [1st Ch] plus 3/- [2nd Ch] 22/11 = 13/9 plus 5/- plus 4/2 9/2 = 5/- plus 4/2 :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Thanks Matlock. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Just by chance I have the war diary here is the relevant page Regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mark Thompson 21 said: Is there much else that can be learned of this chap and his time in the war? Returning to your main request: Soldiers died in the Great War = Birthplace: Sunderland Enlisted: Sunderland Probably not that startling to know he has a MIC for a BWM and VM only * - so landed in theatre after 31/12/1915 From Register of Soldier's Effects = Effects £3 12 2 to widow, Annie, as sole legatee. War Gratuity of £5 10 0 [This WG can usually be used by the skilled, e.g. @ss002d6252 to calculate his date of enlistment to within a month] :-) M Edit: * the BWM & VM Medal Roll adds a bit more detail about his service - typically listed on a MR in chronological order, thus: 2 DLI, Attd 6th Infantry Base Depot, Attd 8th Entrenching Battalion, 2 DLI. Edited 22 November , 2021 by Matlock1418 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 £5 10s net war gratuity is £7 10s gross, 17 months qualifying service at the time of death. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 2 hours ago, Mark Thompson 21 said: I'm busy trying to decipher what is written in red ink on the card! Not sure if you've managed it already, or if this is any help... Widow remarried a Civilian 24.3.17 ^ 9.6. ___________ Dealt? with? issue of gratuity recurring? recovering? over issue of S.A. 14/3 in respect of widow. ____________ any payments made? by? _________ in respect of pension to widow as regards herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Bravo sir. Good effort 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Hi Mark, 2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: widow, Annie, as sole legatee For a small fee the associated will is available from here. Please be aware though that it may only consist of a very few words, and would come as a low resolution B&W scan of the original, attached as a pdf in an email, a few days after ordering. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Thanks Chris, I'll pass the option on 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swinesheadvillage Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Hi Mark Your Great Grandfather is commemorated, as are the great majority of the 41 men who died 15-16/9/1916 from 2DLI, on the Thiepval Memorial to the Missing. In his case, as with many others of the 41, his CWGC commemoration has a concentration report, which is unusual for those remembered on memorials rather than in graves. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/788542/john-hall/#&gid=2&pid=1 I think CWGC are referencing him to A Hall 85419, as I cant find A Hall, with that number, serving with any regiment. The concentration report states 'no bodies found', but does give a map reference for where the Cross I gave a link to earlier, was found, which is the site of his earliest commemoration. Hope this helps Kind Regards Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said: 3 hours ago, Mark Thompson 21 said: I'm busy trying to decipher what is written in red ink on the card! Not sure if you've managed it already, or if this is any help... Widow remarried a Civilian 24.3.17 ^ 9.6. ___________ Dealt? with? issue of gratuity recurring? recovering? over issue of S.A. 14/3 in respect of widow. ____________ any payments made? by? _____IO____ in respect of pension to widow as regards herself. SA = Separation Allowance(s) - the standard SA was paid for c.6 months after a man was reported dead [to allow for the pension to be set up] - it seems they overpaid her SA and recovered the excess - quite likely another reason why Noted for Novel IO = Issue Office / Issuing Office :-) M Edited 22 November , 2021 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 Great stuff. Many thanks again! 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Thompson 21 Posted 22 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2021 1 hour ago, Swinesheadvillage said: Hi Mark Your Great Grandfather is commemorated, as are the great majority of the 41 men who died 15-16/9/1916 from 2DLI, on the Thiepval Memorial to the Missing. In his case, as with many others of the 41, his CWGC commemoration has a concentration report, which is unusual for those remembered on memorials rather than in graves. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/788542/john-hall/#&gid=2&pid=1 I think CWGC are referencing him to A Hall 85419, as I cant find A Hall, with that number, serving with any regiment. The concentration report states 'no bodies found', but does give a map reference for where the Cross I gave a link to earlier, was found, which is the site of his earliest commemoration. Hope this helps Kind Regards Derek Thanks Derek. I've visions of those lads just sinking into the quagmire lost forever. Awful. I managed to read the was diary of the advance to quadrilateral trench and lack of success on either flank leaving these lads exposed. All ground taken then conceded. Senseless. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 November , 2021 Share Posted 22 November , 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mark Thompson 21 said: Bravo sir. Good effort 👍 If you look you will see that sir is actually a madam and extremely multilingual in the way that puts so many of us Brits to shame. Edited 22 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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