Pte Samuel Yates 20818 - 15th Bn Lancashire Fusiliers

[AndrewSid]

Hoping  for a little help deciphering a couple of his service record entries

Samuel was a great great uncle.  His service record luckily survives. He attested on  7 Dec 1915 but was not actually mobilised until 4 Jan 1917,  odd in itself.  However, he was rapidly  in France initially with the 11th then quickly 15th Bn from 18th April 1917. He survived the war without serious injury and was not discharged until Sept 1919.

Can anyone help with the entry dated 27.8.17 -  it’s something like “to pay for replacement for  xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx by neglect “

Also the entry below that states dated 28 Aug is something like “Wd Cas Adm”

I’m trying to see if he was actually wounded at any point or if this was some sort of disciplinary. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 November , 2021 by AndrewSid

[RussT]

It's difficult to make out isn't it - phrases I don't recall coming across before ...,,

I think the first word on the 2nd line is "losing". I'll need to stare at the other words for a while !!

The other line I think reads: OC FA (Officer Commanding Field Ambulance) Wd Cas Adm (wounded casualty admitted).

As an aside - what's "interesting" is that the LF number 20818 (irrespective of it having a 4/ prefix) was allotted on such a relatively late date.

Regards

Russ

 

[RussT]

[PRC]

Have we already covered "Losing a Bomb Bucket by neglect" with the above post by Russ

Cheers,
Peter

[RussT]

I think you've got it. I could sort of see "bomb" but couldn't see the next word even though that also started with a "b"

 

 

[brianmorris547]

He was admitted to either 3 or 5 B H (Base Hospital) or S H (Stationary Hospital) Rouen on 26/08/1918 from a Field Ambulance. H A refers to the number of the Casualty List on which he is named. He should be named in the War Office Casualty Lists end of September or early October under wounded Lancs Fusiliers.

Brian 

[AndrewSid]

Thank you all.

Oh dear, regarding the loss of the bomb bucket - I wonder how much that cost him.

A glance at the war diary for August shows the Bn in the front  line trenches from the 4th to to 16th then under canvas in reserve for the remainder.  Diary seems to be one of those that just reports casualties at months end : 4 killed, 36 wounded and 3 missing in August.  Less that the month prior with 14 killed, 91 wounded and 11 missing.

Brian -  thankyou specifically for the casualty details He rejoined the 15th Bn at some point after his wounding as he is with them by late 1918 if not before.  Found him in the 8th of Oct 1918 casualty lists

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 November , 2021 by AndrewSid

[AndrewSid]

1 hour ago, RussT said:

As an aside - what's "interesting" is that the LF number 20818 (irrespective of it having a 4/ prefix) was allotted on such a relatively late date.

Russ -  could he perhaps have been issued his number in 1915 or soon therafter?  13 months seems a long time in 1916 to wait for mobilisation.  He was single and unmarried. perhaps some medical delay.  after some hiccup before mobilisation has it took 

 

 

[RussT]

2 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

France initially with the 11th then quickly 15th Bn from 18th April 1917/

I interpret his record such that he was nominally "posted" to the 11/Bn LF upon his arrival in France (normally at an IBD - but not shown) on 18/04/1917 but he did not serve with that unit in the field. Rather, he was "re-posted" to the 15/Bn LF on 5th May 1917, joining them in the field on 6th May 1917. I would suggest he spent the time between 18/04/1917 and 05/05/1917 at an IBD. This is also consistent with his medal roll, which just states 15/Bn.

29 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

Russ -  could he perhaps have been issued his number in 1915 or soon therafter?  13 months seems a long time in 1916 to wait for mobilisation.  He was single and unmarried. perhaps some medical delay. 

I would say no. From records of other men with near numbers, there was evidently a small block of regular series LF service numbers that were being allotted by the 4th (Reserve) Bn at this time. Why that block of numbers didn't get used up earlier is a bit of a mystery. A vagary of the admin system I suspect. 

His time in the reserve was quite long but I've come across many like that - for all sorts of reasons. His occupation was cotton spinner so I don't think it was because he was doing vital work. Medical or family reasons might be the case.

Regards

Russ

[AndrewSid]

19 minutes ago, RussT said:

I interpret his record such that he was nominally "posted" to the 11/Bn LF upon his arrival in France (normally at an IBD - but not shown) on 18/04/1917 but he did not serve with that unit in the field. Rather, he was "re-posted" to the 15/Bn LF on 5th May 1917, joining them in the field on 6th May 1917. I would suggest he spent the time between 18/04/1917 and 05/05/1917 at an IBD. This is also consistent with his medal roll, which just states 15/Bn.

Russ -  thankyou that confirms what I thought.  Most of the family infantrymen I’ve researched seem to have changed units whilst at an IBD in France. 

With regard to his number, which I am by far knowledgeable on, it seemed odd he stayed in the mill for the whole of 1916.  Medical Board in Dec 16 had him as A1 prior to finally leaving home in Jan 17.   Fairly quick basic training before heading across though. 

 

Edited 21 November , 2021 by AndrewSid

[RussT]

By the way I think it says 5 SH (stationary hospital) but he was moved to 74 GH (general hospital) and was some later at 14 SH.

I can't quite read the last line of the first page of his AF B 103 - it looks like "??" "depot" which might mean a convalescent depot.

My GU served in and died with the 15/LF so I'm naturally interested !!

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

Oh, by the way - even though the IBD he was at is not given in his record, it would have been 23/IBD (Etaples) as this was the IBD that served the needs of the LF at this time.

Regards

Rus

[PRC]

36 minutes ago, RussT said:

His occupation was cotton spinner so I don't think it was because he was doing vital work.

Is it known where he was working - I believe some of the mills were repurposed for the production of guncotton. A delay in call-up of a Derby Scheme man if he was working in munitions, or even just if the cotton yarn being produced was deemed essential to the war effort, would be plausible reason for the late mobilisation.

As more women entered the workforce and disabled soldiers were discharged it would have got harder for an employer to argue for the retention of a man classed A1 unless they had very specialist skills.

Cheers,
Peter

[AndrewSid]

Thanks Russ.

Samuel is the third Lancashire Fusiler great or great great Uncle.  The other two ended up in different regiments, one due to a change at the IBD and the other after a wounding with 12 LF having moved from Salonica to France whilst he was in hospital.  Both were wounded once before one being killed and the other captured by the Bulgarians.

Luckily all 3 of their service records have survived.  Did the LF get away better than most when the records were burnt in ww2?

With regard to the 15th Bn its a shame the war diary is so sparsely filled out. 

 

[AndrewSid]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

Is it known where he was working - I believe some of the mills were repurposed for the production of guncotton. A delay in call-up of a Derby Scheme man if he was working in munitions, or even just if the cotton yarn being produced was deemed essential to the war effort, would be plausible reason for the late mobilisation.

It was in Radcliffe,  just north of Manchester.  I’m not sure what mill.  There were quite a few. I will have a deeper look.

[RussT]

13 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

Did the LF get away better than most when the records were burnt in ww2?

I don't think so - fairly typical of most in my experience.

My GU's service record didn't survive unfortunately !!

[Collyhurstkid]

Charles Stevenson 1st Salford Pals.pdf

On 21/11/2021 at 22:16, AndrewSid said:

 

Hi AndrewSid

I was interested to see your interesting post regarding your great great uncle and the 15th  Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, as  my great grandfather Charles Stevenson served and died with them. He was a Collyhurst man of Irish descent living in the street next to the one where I was born and raised. I am unable to find any attestation details on FMP/Ancestry but have to assume after training he landed in Boulogne France in November 1915 with the 1st Salford Pals; he would be their first man to be killed in action some 5 weeks later, of which more later.

His service number was 20542. Looking at the service numbers in Michael Stedman's book (Appendix II in The Somme 1916 & other experiences of the Salford Pals). It is interesting that not one man on the roll of 15th,16th,19th and 20th service battalions in 1915 had a service number in the range 20000 to 20999. I am not sure why my great grandad  was not on the roll but might be linked to his number being in that 'missing' cohort of numbers. The nearest numbers either side of the 'missing' cohort recorded on the roll are 19998 Pte. T. Walmsley (20th Service Battalion) and 21001 Pte. S. Tennant (19th Service Battalion).

Going through the 15 Bt. WD I followed the 1st Pals progress from their disembarkation to their arrival in action in the trenches at La Boiselle, astride the Albert-Bapaume Road. The WD  entry for the 24 -28 December 1915 (bracketed together) states (Attached section of WD):

"Battn. was very lucky to escape with only 1 man killed and 2 slightly wounded.19th Lan Fus. shared the trenches with us"

But not so lucky for my great grandad and his family as he was the one killed, leaving his wife and five young children. He is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial, KIA 28 December 1915.

Best wishes

Gary

[RussT]

29 minutes ago, Collyhurstkid said:

The nearest numbers either side of the 'missing' cohort recorded on the roll are 19998 Pte. T. Walmsley (20th Service Battalion) and 21001 Pte. S. Tennant (19th Service Battalion).

There was also 19999 T Wilson (20th Bn) followed by 20014 W Patterson (19th Bn) - but then the gap to 21000 Livesey (19th Bn).

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

37 minutes ago, Collyhurstkid said:

I am unable to find any attestation details on FMP/Ancestry but have to assume after training he landed in Boulogne France in November 1915 with the 1st Salford Pals;

Don't think you need to assume as his 1914/1915 Medal Roll states 23/11/1915 which was the date the Bn landed in France.

Russ

[Collyhurstkid]

Ok thanks Russ

Gary

[RussT]

I'm not sure you will be particularly interested in these additional details but 20542 Charles Stephenson (or Stevenson) was originally numbered as 13350.

He was in 19th Platoon of E (Reserve) Company in 15/LF. This was made up of men who enlisted into the Pals from the traditional catchment area in late 1914 and throughout early to mid 1915, some of whom joined the remnants of the Battalion at their first training ground in Conway after the main body of the Battalion had already left for Brigade training in Catterick in June 1915.

I would put Stephenson's enlistment date at around 25th May 1915.

On 7th August 1915, this E (Reserve) Company of the 15/LF together with the other E (Reserve) Companies of the other Salford Pals Battalions amalgamated to form the 21st (Reserve) Battalion of the LF and which subsequently moved to Prees Heath in November 1915.

However, it looks like Stephenson was posted to or remained with the 15th Bn before this final move as he evidently landed with them in France on 23/11/1915, being subsequently KiA ,as you know, shortly thereafter on 28th December 1915. However, I note his VM/BWM roll actually (& helpfully) lists his Battalions as 15th, 21st and finally 15th again implying he did "move" to the 21st (Reserve) Bn before being posted back to the 15th Bn.

As an aside, the reason for the original 13xxx numbering and the subsequent re-numbering seems to be because of a bit of a cock-up by LF records office. The relevant 13xxx numbers had already been allotted to men enlisting in the Kitchener Service Battalions - predominantly, it seems, the 13th (Reserve) Battalion. But it appears that the large block of numbers allotted for the numbering of the Salford Pals Battalions was inexplicably extended (in error, as it subsequently transpired). Hence there was a later need to re-number the men in the Pals Battalions, although I have found some examples of men who were not re-numbered meaning that duplicate LF numbers (contrary to regulations) were being used in some cases.

Stephenson appears in the Salford Brigade Roll of Honour as a member of 19th Platoon/E Company of the 15/LF as highlighted in the image below.

Regards

Russ

 

 

[Collyhurstkid]

Thank you Russ; a most interesting and personally satisfying reply. I confirm the correct spelling is Stevenson. The War Memorial on Rochdale Road, Collyhurst, Manchester has it right. I always had a feeling when I was child growing up in Collyhurst in the 1950s and 60s, that at least one of  the two C. Stevensons commemorated on it was a relative, but none of the family knew anything  about or felt inclined to discuss it. My grandad, also named Charles Stevenson, was one of the five children bereaved when Charles senior  (my great grandad) was killed at La Boiselle; he never spoke of his father. I guess family history was not high priority for those in this very poor area of Manchester.

Decades later my interest was kindled when a box of family papers came into my possession. Thinking how likely it was that if one of the  Stevensons had joined up, then enlistment with the Salford Pals would have been a likely regiment, as Collyhurst shared a boundary with an equally poor district of Salford. We lived very close to the notorious Victorian slum of Angel Meadow, near to the River Irk where my dad spent his life working in a grim factory there.

So began my interest with the service battalions of the Lancashire Fusiliers. It was in the Stedman book I mentioned previously that I began my search and was delighted to find C. Stephenson in the section you have highlighted, convinced it was just probably a mis-spelling (a common occurrence with our name). However I was persuaded otherwise by a relative who said his service number was 20542I and led astray somewhat by this. 

Although very much still a novice in WW1 research, I am grateful to you and others who have taken the time to assist me and encouraged me to dig deeper. Thank you again.

Blessings and shalom

Gary