"DR" on ASC identity disk.

[o j kirby]

Hello,

I recently observed the letters "DR" prior to the man's initial on an ASC identity disk. Does this indicate that he was a Despatch Rider or a Driver?

Many thanks,

Owain.

[ss002d6252]

28 minutes ago, o j kirby said:

Hello,

I recently observed the letters "DR" prior to the man's initial on an ASC identity disk. Does this indicate that he was a Despatch Rider or a Driver?

Many thanks,

Owain.

Who is the man ?

Craig

[Matlock1418]

46 minutes ago, o j kirby said:

I recently observed the letters "DR" prior to the man's initial on an ASC identity disk. Does this indicate that he was a Despatch Rider or a Driver?

I thought Despatch Riders were part of the Royal Engineers (Signals) so I would err towards Driver if Army Service Corps.

:-) M

[o j kirby]

18 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Who is the man ?

Craig

Hi Craig

My notes say 096790 H Goostrey if that helps.

Cheers,

Owain

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Driver, although that is usually abbreviated to Dvr.

Is it a regulation issue disc  or a private purchase?

[Gardenerbill]

ASC had despatch riders as well but more likely to be Driver.

[o j kirby]

Just now, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Driver, although that is usually abbreviated to Dvr.

Is it a regulation issue disc  or a private purchase?

It was an issue disc...

[ss002d6252]

His full number is DM2/096790

Almost certainly a driver, I would say.

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

He is DM2/ prefixed, so a Mechanical Transport learner at call up.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000621-02842?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=5c7401919bbe6b0965cabf0b63efaba4&usePUB=true&_phsrc=jpv237&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=747264

More likely therefore to be a lorry, car or tractor driver than a dispatch rider.

(As Craig says!)

Edited 18 November , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[o j kirby]

Thanks for the replies. I have never observed "extra" information on issue identity discs. Was there a regulation template for the information to include, and what would be the options for long or double barreled names with the limited space available?

Owain.

[FROGSMILE]

I don’t think we should entirely rule out dispatch rider, for which the use of DR as an abbreviation was common.  Although the signal service RE did indeed have dispatch riders (identified by armbands), the ASC was such a big corps that I understand there were a larger number in that category of employment.  See the abbreviations list in the long long trail: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/common-british-army-acronyms-and-abbreviations-of-the-first-world-war/

The letters DR were much later adopted as the specialist badge for dispatch riders. 

Edited 18 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

I know I erred towards Driver but in the ASC wasn't there commonly the rank of Private?

Can't but help notice that Henry GOOSTRY's MIC as DM2/096790 is as a Pte.

Was Driver a specialist rank, appointment or role?

A despatch rider would be a role I suspect. = I know @FROGSMILE will be able to sort us me out.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, o j kirby said:

I have never observed "extra" information on issue identity discs. Was there a regulation template for the information to include, and what would be the options for long or double barreled names with the limited space available?

This thread appears to have a pertinent lead on the subject of ID discs

I've not yet read the suggested [2nd link] but off to do so now.

:-) M

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Was Driver a specialist rank, appointment or role?

It was technically a rank, but that doesn't stop it from being used interchangeably with Private.

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Likewise, wouldn't 'Dispatch Rider' be a job description rather than a rank?

I would imagine that you could be a Private or a Sargeant but still be a Dispatch Rider?

[Matlock1418]

18 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It was technically a rank,

In the Artillery Driver was a rank I think [certainly commonly matching their driver role] - and aren't those descriptions in the right-hand column essentially appointments in roles/trades?

In the ASC = ??  I'm rather erring to role more than rank with that driver role = ??

9 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I would imagine that you could be a Private or a Sargeant but still be a Dispatch Rider?

Certainly I've seen a few photos of DR with rank chevrons - from somewhere foggily in the back of my brain I think DR were given at least one stripe to help them do their role more efficiently amongst/in an army of so many Privates [?]

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

Dispatch Rider (DR) was an appointment.  Never a rank.  In the RE a DR might be a Sapper and in the ASC a DR might be a Driver.

Edited 18 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Gardenerbill]

My Grandfather was a despatch rider for his MT Company, his ranks were Private, Lance Corporal and Corporal. I read somewhere that early in the war despatch riders were automatically given the rank of Corporal as private soldiers were not allowed to address an officer.

[Matlock1418]

29 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Dispatch Rider (DR) was an appointment.  Never a rank.

Thank you for your input, now and previously [I loved the earlier photos of the flat tank motorcycles! :-)]

Given that the appointments of L/Cpl, Saddler, Shoeing-Smith and the like seem to have commonly been used instead of rank in a number of scenarios I think you were very wise to keep the Despatch Rider option open now that we know [certainly I now better know] that the ASC also had DR.

In fact I think you have now rather turned my original errings - Despatch Rider now seems very plausible! [Especially when DVR seems to have been the widely more common abreviation of Driver]

:-) M

6 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

I read somewhere that early in the war despatch riders were automatically given the rank of Corporal as private soldiers were not allowed to address an officer.

That's got to be the sort of thing I foggily recalled earlier.

:-) M

Edited 18 November , 2021 by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

I’m afraid it’s nonsense that DRs had to be also NCOs, there are numerous surviving photos of RE and ASC DRs with no rank stripes, several of which I’ve posted above. That said it was of course a responsible job whose appointees had to be confident communicators with individual initiative and determination.  Unsurprisingly such men became NCOs in due course, especially in the Signal Service where the communication aspect was absolutely paramount.

Edited 18 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

53 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m afraid it’s nonsense that DRs had to be also NCOs, there are numerous surviving photos of RE and ASC DRs with no rank stripes, several of which I’ve posted above. That said it was of course a responsible job whose appointees had to be confident communicators with individual initiative and determination.  Unsurprisingly such men became NCOs in due course, especially in the Signal Service where the communication aspect was absolutely paramount.

In The Adventures of a Despatch Rider by Capt. W. H. L. Watson, RE, he describes enlisting as a DR and wrote "I had come only to make inquiries, but I was carried away. After a series of waits I was medically examined and passed. At 5.45 p.m. I kissed the Book, and in two minutes I became a corporal in the Royal Engineers." so though perhaps not a necessity for DR it seems quite likely to have happened for some early in the war in the RE.  Immediately prior Watson was a university student, at Oxford I think.

Your further motorcycle photos are a joy to behold.

:-) M

Edit: The Adventures of a Despatch Rider is still readily and widely available and also at https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16868

Edited 19 November , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit with book link

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

In The Adventures of a Despatch Rider by Capt. W. H. L. Watson, RE, he describes enlisting as a DR and wrote "I had come only to make inquiries, but I was carried away. After a series of waits I was medically examined and passed. At 5.45 p.m. I kissed the Book, and in two minutes I became a corporal in the Royal Engineers." so though perhaps not a necessity for DR it seems quite likely to have happened for some early in the war in the RE.  Immediately prior Watson was a university student, at Oxford I think.

Your further motorcycle photos are a joy to behold.

:-) M

The RE were one of a few corps that had an extra substantive NCO rank, that of ‘Second Corporal’, who wore one stripe. Both he, the full Corporal above him, and the non-substantive Acting Second Corporal beneath him, were all generically ‘Corporals’ and to be addressed as such.  It’s not difficult to imagine a university graduate becoming quickly elevated to wear a stripe.  Being well educated and articulate would have made him a natural candidate to be a DR in the Signal Service.

Edited 18 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[o j kirby]

Hello,

Thanks for the input into this topic. I must add that I do have a set of photos which depict an ASC soldier whom I believe is a Despatch Rider, goggles on cap and what I suspect to be specialist overcoats offering warmth against the elements. I will look for them in due course and share.

 

Cheers,

Owain.

[Matlock1418]

In an 2017 extended and much illustrated version of The Adventures of a Despatch Rider under the title Two Wheels to War Martin and Nick Shelley make reference to Corporals on page 252 - there they refer to/explain "it was forbidden to an officer directly" and "this explanation has gained much currency"

They then go on to suggest that in fact for the RE it was a positive recruitment for to attract men of the right calibre for the RE SR before the war as a Corporal which reflected the level of responsibilty - with an enhanced pay scale. = Citing Gegg, Martin in a GWF post dated 3/11/2013 in the thread Despatch Riders - RE Signals = How the world goes round!!!  Here's the thread:

RE of course - and yes, Watson probably had the 'Right Stuff'

:-) M

Edited 19 November , 2021 by Matlock1418
added the GWF link

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, o j kirby said:

I must add that I do have a set of photos which depict an ASC soldier whom I believe is a Despatch Rider, goggles on cap and what I suspect to be specialist overcoats offering warmth against the elements. I will look for them in due course and share.

Yes please - photos will be welcomed [and probably not just by me!].

:-) M