German POWs working on English estates

[Ben A]

Hi, I'm researching a group of German Prisoners of War who worked on the Cliveden estate in England in early 1917. All I have are the names of the prisoners, the amount they were being paid and in one case the job they did whilst on the estate. Unfortunately I don't have any idea of regiment or rank, although the proximity of Holyport Prisoner of War Camp suggests they might have been Officers? With this rather scant information is it possible to find out more information about the POWs and how they came to work at Cliveden? Any pointers or possible avenues of research would be very gratefully received!

[AOK4]

Hello,

You can search for them on the website of the Red Cross: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/ and in the Verlustlisten: http://des.genealogy.net/eingabe-verlustlisten/search/index

Jan

[Ben A]

Hi, many thanks Jan. Unfortunately the Red Cross site has already drawn a blank but I'll certainly see where I get to with the other link you provided! Cheers 

[AOK4]

15 minutes ago, Ben A said:

Hi, many thanks Jan. Unfortunately the Red Cross site has already drawn a blank but I'll certainly see where I get to with the other link you provided! Cheers 

You should give us the names. We might be able to find more. Note that the Red Cross website has a sometimes weird way of filing the names (not purely alphabetical but also phonetical).

Jan

[Ben A]

Here are the names, I can't vouch for the spelling as my starting point are record cards compiled by an estate employee in 1917. Also there are three where only one name is provided. 

Haus Peter Wollensen

Walmovitch

Albert Coffey

Joseph Czuchnowski

Peter Hansen

Rasmus Hansen

Karlack

Alexander Kuzyk

John Emidio Mihalich

Albert Minielinski

Milalich (not sure with this one could also be Mihalich) Job: Boatman

I appreciate it might be along shot but many thanks for your offer of help!

 

[AOK4]

First name is probably Hans Peter Wollesen, see http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/6202824 and https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3097340/1/2/ and https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/D/05/01/C_G1_D_05_01_0041/C_G1_D_05_01_0041_0096.JPG/4

Jan

[knittinganddeath]

There are a bunch of Rasmus and Peter Hansens in the ICRC files. They are filed under "Henzen."

You could also try searching for the Hansens on this site about Sønderjyder, ethnic Danes who served in the German army.

[Ben A]

Many thanks to you both. This is really helpful and I'll certainly follow up on your links. Below is a transcription of all the info on each card. I suppose the most useful info is the date they arrived at Cliveden, and the fact that many of them got a pay rise in April '17!

Wollensen, Haus Peter

Came: Jan 23^rd 1917

Wages £1 per wk les max of 12/6 for B&L

             £1, 5   (Apr 17)

Walmovitch Prisoner of War Cliveden

Wages . 25/-

Coffey, Albert

Pris of War

Came 23^rd Jan 1917

Wages - £1 for wk less max of 12/6 for B&L

                £1.5.0 (Apr 17)

Czucknowski (?), Joseph

Pris of War

Came Jan 23^rd 1917

Wages £1 for wk less max of 12/6 for B&L

             £1.5/- (increased Apr 17)

Panovitch (?) Prisoner of War Cliveden

Wages . 25/- per week

Hansen, Peter

Pris of War

Came Jan 23^rd 1917

Wages £1 per wk less max of 12/6 for B&L

Hansen, Rasmus

Pris of War

Came Jan 23^rd 1917

Wages £1 for wk less max of 12/6 for B&L

Karlack Prisoner of War Cliveden

Wages – 25/- per week

Kuzyk, Alexander

P of War

Came 20^th March 1917

Wages £1 less max 12/3 B&L

             £1.5/- (increased Apr 17)

Mihalich, John Emidio

P of War

Came 20^th March 1917

Wages £1 less max of 12/3 B&L

             £1.5/- (incr Apr 17.)

Minielinski, Labert

Pris of War

Came 23^rd Jan 1917

Wages - £1 per wk les max of 12/6 B&L

                £1.5/- (increased Apr 17)

Mihalich Boatman Cliveden

Wages £1.10.7

Prisoner of War

£1-15-7 increased April

 

 

[GreyC]

41 minutes ago, Ben A said:

Wollensen, Haus Peter

It´s actually Wollensen, Hans Peter (as already noted by Jan above, as I now see).

 

GreyC

Edited 18 November , 2021 by GreyC

[AOK4]

32 minutes ago, GreyC said:

It´s actually Wollensen, Hans Peter (as already noted by Jan above, as I now see).

 

GreyC

The last name should be "Wollesen" according to the Verlustlisten. Anyway, it can't be the man I had found as my man was only taken prisoner in April 1917 while the prisoner was already working in the UK since January 1917.

Jan

[knittinganddeath]

@Ben A Do you know for sure that they were German or could they also be from Austria-Hungary? Mihalich and Kuzyk could be Galician/Ukrainian/Polish (parts of these territories were ruled by Austria-Hungary at the time). Of course, I might be building castles out of air, or whatever the expression is...

[Moonraker]

Neither Cliveden nor Taplow is mentioned as work camps in Prisoners of War in British Hands during WW1 by Graham Mark, which has a very comprehensive list, which may be not complete. Visits by the protecting power - the United States - in December 1915 reported  124 officers, of which one was German. In February 1916 the roll was 33 naval and 90 army officers, all German except one Austrian. On May 25, 1916 all the inmates were German. On October 13 all 429 inmates were German. Enlisted men acted as orderlies. No mention of work parties. I realise that Ben's names arrived in 1917.

Ben says they worked "on the Cliveden estate", which suggests outside work. Some German PoWs were given work in hospitals, and Cliveden was converted into one early in the war.

[GreyC]

4 hours ago, knittinganddeath said:

Mihalich and Kuzyk could be Galician/Ukrainian/Polish (parts of these territories were ruled by Austria-Hungary at the time).

Hi,

around 3,5Mio inhabitants of the German Reich had Polish roots and Polish names. If male, and physically fit they had to serve in the German Army. That doesn´t make your comment less valid, though. I only wanted to point out that both countries had very many people with names like that.

GreyC

[AOK4]

5 hours ago, GreyC said:

Hi,

around 3,5Mio inhabitants of the German Reich had Polish roots and Polish names. If male, and physically fit they had to serve in the German Army. That doesn´t make your comment less valid, though. I only wanted to point out that both countries had very many people with names like that.

GreyC

Indeed, and I doubt there were many Austro-Hungarian POWs in British hands in 1917?

[knittinganddeath]

@GreyC and @AOK4 Good points, I mostly wondered because I managed to find some Mihelic/Mihalo/Michalek and Kuzyk among the Austrian POW records but not the German ones -- though that's probably due to not looking in the right place.

[Ron Clifton]

Just a thought: was it permissible under the Geneva Conventions to require officers to work? (The original post refers to a nearby PoW camp for officers.)

The father of a friend of mine was taken prisoner in May 1918 (on the Chemin des Dames, phase 3 of the Kaiserschlacht) and his diary makes no mention of being made to work. Apparently the officers spent most of their time playing tennis and complaining about the food.

Ron

[GreyC]

Hi Ron,

as far as I know it was not permissable, however some officers worked voluntarily as the were bored.

GreyC

[Ben A]

Thanks Ron - that's an interesting point which I wasn't aware of, I will certainly look into it. Lord Astor, who owned Cliveden, took an active interest in PoWs and asked a number of questions in parliament about the possibilities of including PoWs in the workforce. I need to check his archives but it could be that he got the men from wherever he could! Many thanks all.