private 15569 Edgar James Stocker 17th battalion kings liverpool

[Tim Conroy Stocker]

Hi everyone, first time poster here. A strange request! So i did some research on my great Uncle Edgar who sadly died at Guillemont on 30th July 1916. In the trench maps around guillemont there is a trench called 'Stocker Avenue' near Maltz Horn farm. (see attached) I wonder if anyone knows information around naming conventions for trenches or has any information about the battalions activities in the area that might shed any light on this. In my head he did something like fall into the trench or something like that but it would be lovely to have something more than conjecture!

 

Any information gratefully received!

 

Cheers Tim

[Don Regiano]

4 hours ago, Tim Conroy Stocker said:

any information about the battalions activities

Battalion's war diary available as a free download (when you register):

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353647

[Tim Conroy Stocker]

13 hours ago, Don Regiano said:

Battalion's war diary available as a free download (when you register):

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353647

Thanks Don, yep looked through the war diary, unfortunately the level of detail is not there. good suggestion though!

 

cheers tim

[brianmorris547]

Tim

I have an interest in the Operations in Guillemont on 03/09/1916 and in particular the part played by 20 Div RE. My notes tell me that in the September 1916 WD of HQ General Staff 20 Div (WO 95/2095) there are a number of maps (starting at p 812/955 on Ancestry). I checked them again and they show Stocker Alley but not Stocker Ave which runs north from Maltz Horn Farm.

Have you also seen the reports on the Operations on 30 July in the WDs of 89 Infantry Brigade (WO 95/2331) Ancestry p 354 and 30 Div HQ General Staff (WO 95/2310) Ancestry p 518).

To find these WDs on Ancestry just put 2095 into the keywords box and leave everything else blank.  

Brian

[Tim Conroy Stocker]

3 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Tim

I have an interest in the Operations in Guillemont on 03/09/1916 and in particular the part played by 20 Div RE. My notes tell me that in the September 1916 WD of HQ General Staff 20 Div (WO 95/2095) there are a number of maps (starting at p 812/955 on Ancestry). I checked them again and they show Stocker Alley but not Stocker Ave which runs north from Maltz Horn Farm.

Have you also seen the reports on the Operations on 30 July in the WDs of 89 Infantry Brigade (WO 95/2331) Ancestry p 354 and 30 Div HQ General Staff (WO 95/2310) Ancestry p 518).

To find these WDs on Ancestry just put 2095 into the keywords box and leave everything else blank.  

Brian

Hi Brian thanks so much i thought i had read the brigade war diary, but i think i had just read a summary in the regimental history Although no personal detail the account of the attack on the 30th and the preparations was really enlightening and horrifying that it went ahead despite the obvious heavy resistance. I have a look at the other docs too. thanks so much for your help. Tim

[brianmorris547]

Tim

In July 1916 the area was taken over from the French by 30 Div and I have looked at the WDs of 30 Div RE who would have worked on the trenches. They were working on extending and wiring in the area but Stocker Alley is not named. 30 Div were relieved by 55 West Lancs Div at the end of July and 166 Infantry Brigade attacked Guillemont on 08/08/1916 without success. So in between July, when Stocker Alley is not named and September, when the maps in the WD of 20 Div HQ GS show Stocker Alley I found these two maps in the August WD of 55 Div HQ General Staff (WO 95/2900 - Ancestry p 122 and p 140 /717). The larger map was made from a 13 Corps Map Y 2 and the smaller map shows Cochrane Alley, Stocker Alley and Duncan Alley. They were probably names of 13 Corps Officers.

I read the WDs of 55 Div RE but only found one mention of Stocker Alley. In the WD of 2/1 West Lancs FC (422 FC) 04/08/1916, "Parties digging CT from Trones Wood to Stocker Alley" (WO 95/2916 - Ancestry p 438/836).

Brian

[Tim Conroy Stocker]

17 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Tim

In July 1916 the area was taken over from the French by 30 Div and I have looked at the WDs of 30 Div RE who would have worked on the trenches. They were working on extending and wiring in the area but Stocker Alley is not named. 30 Div were relieved by 55 West Lancs Div at the end of July and 166 Infantry Brigade attacked Guillemont on 08/08/1916 without success. So in between July, when Stocker Alley is not named and September, when the maps in the WD of 20 Div HQ GS show Stocker Alley I found these two maps in the August WD of 55 Div HQ General Staff (WO 95/2900 - Ancestry p 122 and p 140 /717). The larger map was made from a 13 Corps Map Y 2 and the smaller map shows Cochrane Alley, Stocker Alley and Duncan Alley. They were probably names of 13 Corps Officers.

I read the WDs of 55 Div RE but only found one mention of Stocker Alley. In the WD of 2/1 West Lancs FC (422 FC) 04/08/1916, "Parties digging CT from Trones Wood to Stocker Alley" (WO 95/2916 - Ancestry p 438/836).

Brian

Brian thanks again for the work you have done on this. Before I only had the one map from. Now you have given me more references to the trench and more images, and its really interesting to have them. and to understand the timescales. I think the 17th KLR were involved in the capture of maltz horn form earlier in July from the brigade war diary, so its possible it was dug around then. I will have a sloser look at the diary to see if i can pin it down. Unfortunately there is less about that and most of the diary tends to focus around actions in trones wood. thanks again

Tim

[brianmorris547]

I mentioned before that Cochrane, Duncan and Stocker were probably the names of 13 Corps Officers but on reflection the 13 Corps map was corrected on 28/07/1916 by 55 Div HQ GS. The WD of the Adjutant and Quarter-Master General 55 Div (WO 95/2908) shows two of these names.

Lt Col J K Cochrane G S O 1 and Brig Gen F G Duncan Commanding 165 IB.

The hunt is on for a 55 Div Officer named Stocker, I had a quick look on Discovery but nothing obvious.

EDIT 55 AQ p 537/976 Captain Stocker of 1/9 Liverpool Regt appointed Staff Captain 166 IB.

The coincidence of all three names is persuasive.

Courtesy TNA WO 95/2908 

EDIT For the record I can not see him named in the WDs of 1/9 KLR or in 166 IB but he would seem to be Lt (A/Capt) Eustace D H Stocker (See MRIC). His secondment to Staff Captain is in LG 29711 18/08/1916 p 8168. He was also mentioned in Sir Douglas Haig's Despatches 13/11/1916, LG 29890 p 202 which shows that he was fly New Zealand Forces.

Brian

Edited 18 November , 2021 by brianmorris547
additional info

[Tim Conroy Stocker]

14 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

I mentioned before that Cochrane, Duncan and Stocker were probably the names of 13 Corps Officers but on reflection the 13 Corps map was corrected on 28/07/1916 by 55 Div HQ GS. The WD of the Adjutant and Quarter-Master General 55 Div (WO 95/2908) shows two of these names.

Lt Col J T Cochrane G S O 1 and Brig Gen F G Duncan Commanding 165 IB.

The hunt is on for a 55 Div Officer named Stocker, I had a quick look on Discovery but nothing obvious.

EDIT 55 AQ p 537/976 Captain Stocker of 1/9 Liverpool Regt appointed Staff Captain 166 IB.

The coincidence of all three names is persuasive.

Courtesy TNA WO 95/2908 

EDIT For the record I can not see him named in the WDs of 1/9 KLR or in 166 IB but he would seem to be Lt (A/Capt) Eustace D H Stocker (See MRIC). His secondment to Staff Captain is in LG 29711 18/08/1916 p 8168. He was also mentioned in Sir Douglas Haig's Despatches 13/11/1916, LG 29890 p 202 which shows that he was fly New Zealand Forces.

Brian

Wow Brian that's in depth research! It does seem a more plausible answer when linked to the names of the other two trenches. I guess it never occurred to me that there would be another Stocker in the area as its not a common surname. I'm a little disappointed that it would not have been named after him, but only a little. its great to have a lot more in depth knowledge of the area, and i cant thank you enough for filling in some of the details. 

[brianmorris547]

Thanks Tim

My interest lies in the attack on Guillemont on 08/08/1916. It was the first major Action involving Bolton's local TF Bn, 1/5 Loyal North Lancs. Details of the attack and casualty lists of 1/5 were in the Bolton papers later in the month. Prior to the Official reports rumours had been circulating in the town that the entire Bn had been wiped out.  

Brian

[Fattyowls]

Hi Tim

I have an interest in the area where Eddie fell as one of my footballers was killed the same day with the King's. I assume that you have seen and possibly contributed to Eddie's record on the Liverpool Pals Memorial site - https://www.liverpoolpals.com/soldier/?i=2407/15569-Pte-edgar-james-stocker. I find that the photograph really brings the story to life.

Pete.

[Tim Conroy Stocker]

Hi Pete, wow no Ive never seen this picture. He looks a little bit like my dad when he was younger. That's amazing, thanks so much!