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16th Division records


Histoire
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Hello

Under which Army (2nd?), Corps, etc. was the 16th positioned? What units did it contain?

I'm particularly interested in artillery within this division and am searching various records. They seem quite fragmented and classified in various ways, especially when it comes to HQs and orders / planning.

So where do I look outside of the division records themselves please?

Anyone know also of any decent books on this division?

Thanks

Edited by Histoire
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The CRA (16th Division) war diaries are available from the National Archives here. Free to download once a free registration is completed.

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2 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

The CRA (16th Division) war diaries are available from the National Archives here. Free to download once a free registration is completed.

Thanks, I have them. But where else should I look? Which Corps/brigade etc? What army were the 16th in?

3 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

The CRA (16th Division) war diaries are available from the National Archives here. Free to download once a free registration is completed.

What is 'CRA' please?

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Divisions can moved through different Corps, sometimes at a frequent rate. Occasionally I've seen a division move to three different Corps in a month.

Usually these are within the same Army. However, the Reserve Army (later 5th Army) was constructed by moving divisions to a holding Corps which then transferred to the Reserve Army  The divisions then changed to a Corps of the Reserve Army.

There are publications that give Divisions, Corps & Army dispositions but they are set at specific dates. Quite often I find a division in a Corps not covered by the publication.

I can say 16th Division were 2nd Army, 9 Corps 3/12/1916 and 5th Army 19 Corps 1/8/1917.

The 16th Division Headquarters Branches and Services: General Staff diaries will be your best bet to establish the Army & Corps connection on a continuous basis.

TEW

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1 minute ago, TEW said:

Divisions can moved through different Corps, sometimes at a frequent rate. Occasionally I've seen a division move to three different Corps in a month.

Usually these are within the same Army. However, the Reserve Army (later 5th Army) was constructed by moving divisions to a holding Corps which then transferred to the Reserve Army  The divisions then changed to a Corps of the Reserve Army.

There are publications that give Divisions, Corps & Army dispositions but they are set at specific dates. Quite often I find a division in a Corps not covered by the publication.

I can say 16th Division were 2nd Army, 9 Corps 3/12/1916 and 5th Army 19 Corps 1/8/1917.

The 16th Division Headquarters Branches and Services: General Staff diaries will be your best bet to establish the Army & Corps connection on a continuous basis.

TEW

Brilliant, thank you. In which case I will look at records of:

-> 16th Division

-> 2nd Army, 9 Corps 3/12/1916 

-> 5th Army 19 Corps 1/8/1917

In my search for artillery orders - sounds like a plan?

Histoire

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I would use those dates as a starting point. I don't know when 16th Division arrived in France things could be different then.

I usually check the 16th Division diaries to see who they corresponded with at Corps level.

TEW

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16th Division OOB should help for Corps, Armies etc.and to give you the artillery units you require.

 

Andy

8 copy.jpg

9.jpg

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5.jpg

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5 hours ago, Histoire said:

5th Army 19 Corps 1/8/1917

I happen to have looked at XIX Corps Commander Heavy Artillery diary last night, which contains detailed daily reports on sub units of the Royal Garrison Artillery (Heavy and Siege Batteries) activity. I was trying to match up aeroplane artillery observation records to the Diary but failed. Not sure why!

But this is perhaps not what you want? Are you after Field Artillery units?

There is also a CRA XIX  Corps Diary.

Here is a link to Discovery National Archives that I used to find both. Diaries are free to download currently if you register. (you will see the search criteria I used at top left and all you need to do is change Corps number to get appropriate selection)

Charlie

Edited by charlie962
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32 minutes ago, stiletto_33853 said:

16th Division OOB should help for Corps, Armies etc.and to give you the artillery units you require.

Brilliant thanks - which book is that from please?

19 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Field Artillery units

Yes, exactly that

Thanks

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I looked at the August 1917 WD of the 19 Corps Adjutant and Quarter-Master General WO 95/963/4. There are lots of instructions re Light Railways, Medical Arrangements, Ammunition etc and a Location of Units list (p28/130) giving map references for the 19 Corps Heavy Artillery Groups. Nothing about Field Artillery Units though.

Brian

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Major A. F. Becke

Order of Battle Divisions

Part 3A New Army Divisions

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16 hours ago, Histoire said:

I'm particularly interested in artillery within this division

 

-Within the Division or who supported the Division in a particular action? I'm thinking of the Army Field Artillery Brigades, the 'nobody's children', that were allocated, I believe, at Army level but were often gathered into 'Groups'.

Charlie

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2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

 

-Within the Division or who supported the Division in a particular action? I'm thinking of the Army Field Artillery Brigades, the 'nobody's children', that were allocated, I believe, at Army level but were often gathered into 'Groups'.

Charlie

Sources for both really

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17 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

16th Division OOB should help for Corps, Armies etc.and to give you the artillery units you require.

 

Andy

8 copy.jpg

9.jpg

4.jpg

5.jpg

Hello

I know things are rarely as straightforward, but is my reading of this correct in that the artillery indicated would be deployed / used in support of the infantry indicated in the same row?

I.e. if troops of the the 49th were sent into an attack between June 1916 and up to June 1917 the batteries A/B/C/D of the 77th artillery would lay down any supporting barrage, with 16th DAC in support? And so on through the rest of the row and table(s)..

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Here are the references to the War Diaries of 16th Division artillery:

16 DIVISION 
WO 95/1958 Commander Royal Artillery 1916 Jan. - Dec.  
WO 95/1959 Commander Royal Artillery 1917 Jan. - 1918 Dec.  
WO 95/1962 77 Brigade Royal Field Artillery 1914 Oct. - 1916 Dec.  
WO 95/1962 177 Brigade Royal Field Artillery 1916 Feb. - 1919 May  
WO 95/1963 180 Brigade Royal Field Artillery 1916 Feb. - 1919 June  
WO 95/1963 182 Brigade Royal Field Artillery 1916 Feb. - July  
WO 95/1964 Divisional Ammunition Column 1915 Dec. - 1919 May  
WO 95/1963 Divisional Trench Mortar Batteries 1916 July  
WO 95/1963 Divisional Trench Mortar Batteries 1918 Sept. - 1919 Jan.  

They can be downloaded free of charge from the Kew website, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk.

As some boxes contain more than two diaries, you may have to add /1 or /2 after the number.

Ron

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8 hours ago, Histoire said:

I know things are rarely as straightforward, but is my reading of this correct in that the artillery indicated would be deployed / used in support of the infantry indicated in the same row?

Histoire, As you say, things are never straightforward. In summary,

As the war progressed it really became less obvious. There was never a strict line by line/row by row attachment of RFA Bdes to Infantry Bdes that you intimate. But sometimes even the Divisional Artillery was switched to support other Divisions and vice versa. As mentioned there was then the issue of Army RFA Bdes in 1917. So it does come down to Operational Orders for a particular battle if you really want to be sure. There are experts lurking....

Charlie

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1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Histoire, As you say, things are never straightforward. In summary,

As the war progressed it really became less obvious. There was never a strict line by line/row by row attachment of RFA Bdes to Infantry Bdes that you intimate. But sometimes even the Divisional Artillery was switched to support other Divisions and vice versa. As mentioned there was then the issue of Army RFA Bdes in 1917. So it does come down to Operational Orders for a particular battle if you really want to be sure. There are experts lurking....

Charlie

Thanks Charlie

Would I find those within the diaries? 

Are things any more certain when it comes to the DAC..? Or perhaps they also wold be used to support any artillery wherever / whenever (?) 

I found these (attached image) details in the 9 Corps HQ diary for Aug 1917:

1552337266_Screenshot2021-11-03at18_47_34.png.c17ed3313e1955c98858a11279803ba9.png

I imagine this indicates where the DAC was based; their movements to dumps/batteries/etc would be undertaken from there?

Any ideas which maps are being referred to here, are they trench map refs as I may find at MacMaster?

Or perhaps more likely this from the archive?:

 

1470351180_Screenshot2021-11-03at19_02_10.png.ef3c5a5f8c36da4eeca16b2e5632fa76.png

How are these references read? Same as trench maps, i.e. K.16.b.9.2 puts the location in the top right of the square numbered 16 here - bottom right of the 'Watou ARTy Area'?

 

Regards the Army RFA you mention, are these completely outside of the artillery organisation? Any more details please?

Thanks 

 

 

Screenshot 2021-11-03 at 19.02.10.png

Edited by Histoire
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