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Help identifying Brodie Helmet


DangDingus711

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I also posted this in uniforms and caps sub thread- just posting it in both spots to gain more attention possibly!

 

 

Hey everyone! First post here, and I really would like some help. A week or so back I purchased and received a MK1 helmet, advertised as either Canadian or British (I am in Canada, so this helmet could and likely would have served with the CEF).

 

id like to know if you guys think it is “legit” and help with the heat stamp (BS 16). I understand that BS stands for Beardmore of Glasgow (I know the name is longer, just shortening it). What I need help with is the 16 after it. Two questions come up about the 16:

 

1.) the 1 almost has an I quality to it. It is clearly a 1, as there wouldn’t be an I next to a 6- but it looks strange. Anyone have examples of the 1’s looking like this on Brodie helmets? 
 

2.) does this marking indicates hat year it could have been produced in? I know it would not literally be 1916, but could the batch point to what year?

 

I also had a 3rd question related to the authenticity of the helmet. With the heat stamp it has, and the bails, with the non magnetic shell and magnetic rim, does that 100% make it a WW1 helmet, or 1919 at the latest?

 

thank you everyone!

 

Nate

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53406AB0-7CAC-49CE-81BB-D73154058C30.jpeg

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You never need to double post to get a reply, that is if someone can help. Most long established  members will be watching new posts, especially in their areas of interest, and will always see just a single one. if they don't respond, it will be because they don't know the answer, or that their interest is aimed slightly differently.

Welcome to the forum, I hope you enjoy it.

Keith

 

BTW - I know nothing/very little  about uniforms, but like many others just scan the new posts routinely, which is how I saw your post.

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Welcome to the GWF and Im sure someone will be along soon e.g. @FROGSMILE

I have hidden the duplicate post and tagged one of our uniform specialists.  As Keith has said duplicate posts are not necessary and may cause confusion and annoyance, but thank you for telling us.

BTW(2) Like Keith I know very little about uniforms and am not a collector

Ken

Admin

 

 

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Hello Nate,

A welcome to the forum from me also.

The split-pin in the bails, the relatively thin D-rings through the bails and BS 16 confirm this as a British made helmet.

Since buying my own Great War helmet (American-made, not British, it turns out), I have recorded the heat numbers (i.e. which particular firing of the blast furnace it was, and they were numbered serially) of helmets that appear on-line.

For the Beardmore series, BS 16 is the lowest serial and BS 97 is the highest, so far recorded.

If you know when Beardmore started and finished production, you can guesstimate when the 16th heat took place.

Regards,

JMB

Edited by JMB1943
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1 minute ago, JMB1943 said:

Hello Nate,

A welcome to the forum from me also.

The split-pin in the bails, the relatively thin D-rings through the bails and BS 16 confirm this as a British made helmet.

Since buying my own Great War helmet (American-made, not British it turns out), I have recorded the heat numbers (i.e. which particular firing of the blast furnace it was, and they were numbered serially) of helmets that appear on-line.

For the Beardmore series, BS 16 is the lowest serial and BS 97 is the highest.

If you know when Beardmore started and finished production, you can guesstimate when the 16th heat took place.

Regards,

JMB

Interesting I see- so, seeing as BS made helmets from 16-19, I am smacking it right at 1916! Have you ever seen the 1 look like this in your research? As you can see in the photo I posted, it almost looks like an I!

 

thank you!

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I see what you mean about the "1" numeral, it looks to me almost like "!"

However, I would not worry about that, the helmet looks to be genuine to me.

This was wartime and every helmet counted, so speed was of  the essence and dies eventually wear.

Regards,

JMB

 

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3 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

I see what you mean about the "1" numeral, it looks to me almost like "!"

However, I would not worry about that, the helmet looks to be genuine to me.

This was wartime and every helmet counted, so speed was of  the essence and dies eventually wear.

Regards,

JMB

 

And on top of that, it is obviously genuine because of the non magnetic steel and magnetic rim- just thought the initial was strange. Do you know by any chance if all rims were magnetic during WW1?

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Nate,

My feeling is yes, but I cannot answer that definitively off the top of my head.

However, the experts will be along shortly, and in the meantime there have been several long threads here previously on helmets.

Use the search box at top right hand side of the blue banner.

Regards,

JMB

 

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1 minute ago, JMB1943 said:

Nate,

My feeling is yes, but I cannot answer that definitively off the top of my head.

However, the experts will be along shortly, and in the meantime there have been several long threads here previously on helmets.

Use the search box at top right hand side of the blue banner.

Regards,

JMB

 

I see thank you very much!

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On 30/10/2021 at 09:06, kenf48 said:

Welcome to the GWF and Im sure someone will be along soon e.g. @FROGSMILE

I have hidden the duplicate post and tagged one of our uniform specialists.  As Keith has said duplicate posts are not necessary and may cause confusion and annoyance, but thank you for telling us.

BTW(2) Like Keith I know very little about uniforms and am not a collector

Ken

Admin

 

 

Forgive the delayed response Ken, I’ve been away off grid for a short break and only just picked this up.  As it happens I think that JMB1943 was the right person for this query. I know little about steel helmets beyond the basic patterns and the experience of having worn one for a couple of decades until replacement by the ballistic fibre type.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Forgive the delayed response Ken, I’ve been away off grid for a short break and only just picked this up.  As it happens I think that JMB1943 was the right person for this query. I know little about steel helmets beyond the basic patterns and the experience of having worn one for a couple of decades until replacement by the ballistic fibre type.

Regardless, thanks for even commenting! Hopefully a few more responses will come with more activity!

On 30/10/2021 at 11:19, JMB1943 said:

Hello Nate,

A welcome to the forum from me also.

The split-pin in the bails, the relatively thin D-rings through the bails and BS 16 confirm this as a British made helmet.

Since buying my own Great War helmet (American-made, not British, it turns out), I have recorded the heat numbers (i.e. which particular firing of the blast furnace it was, and they were numbered serially) of helmets that appear on-line.

For the Beardmore series, BS 16 is the lowest serial and BS 97 is the highest, so far recorded.

If you know when Beardmore started and finished production, you can guesstimate when the 16th heat took place.

Regards,

JMB

Actually JMB I had another question. You mentioned that BS 16 was the earliest- have you seen any other BS 16 marked helmets? Thanks!

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Nate,

Have just had a check on my tabulation, and actually BS 10 is the lowest serial so far; I don’t keep a record of how many helmets have any given heat number, but had certainly seen at least one BS 16 prior to yours.

Regards,

JMB

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10 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

Nate,

Have just had a check on my tabulation, and actually BS 10 is the lowest serial so far; I don’t keep a record of how many helmets have any given heat number, but had certainly seen at least one BS 16 prior to yours.

Regards,

JMB

I see I see- thanks again!

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On 30/10/2021 at 11:27, JMB1943 said:

I see what you mean about the "1" numeral, it looks to me almost like "!"

However, I would not worry about that, the helmet looks to be genuine to me.

This was wartime and every helmet counted, so speed was of  the essence and dies eventually wear.

Regards,

JMB

 

Hey again JMB- I was just thinking about this comment and was wondering if you had any input as to another question I had pondered up.

 

Are there even such things as “fakes” as far as these helmets go? Like not reproductions, but actual fakes? Like have you ever come across someone advertising a new made fake helmet with an actual heat stamp on it? And does the non magnetic metal shell with the magnetic rim automatically mean it is real? Sorry for such a dumb question, I just wasn’t to make sure I’m not out of $200 Canadian dollars! Thank you!

 

ALSO, my helmet appears a little uneven, with one side of the brim being bigger than the other. Have you ever seen this? Is this abnormal? Thanks!

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13 hours ago, DangDingus711 said:

Are there even such things as “fakes” as far as these helmets go? Like not reproductions, but actual fakes? Like have you ever come across someone advertising a new made fake helmet with an actual heat stamp on it? And does the non magnetic metal shell with the magnetic rim automatically mean it is real? Sorry for such a dumb question, I just wasn’t to make sure I’m not out of $200 Canadian dollars! Thank you!

Nate,

I don't collect these helmets so do not check on-line ads nor handle them at fairs or dealers etc. Not being a collector means that I am free of that "authentic/fake" worry.

My feeling is that these days, people can, and will, forge ANYTHING where there is money to be made.

Can I authenticate definitively  your helmet sight unseen (or even in the hand for that matter)?  Absolutely not! To me, yours looks genuine as stated earlier.

Non-magnetic shell with a magnetic rim is a pointer in the right direction.

13 hours ago, DangDingus711 said:

ALSO, my helmet appears a little uneven, with one side of the brim being bigger than the other. Have you ever seen this? Is this abnormal? Thanks!

Read the previous threads on steel helmets and you will see that this has been mentioned.

Another supposed test for authenticity, is to place the helmet on a perfectly flat surface; a genuine one will rock slightly from front to back.

If you are still concerned about authenticity, have a war museum curator or a militaria dealer do an inspection.

Regards,

JMB

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Just now, JMB1943 said:

Nate,

I don't collect these helmets so do not check on-line ads nor handle them at fairs or dealers etc. Not being a collector means that I am free of that "authentic/fake" worry.

My feeling is that these days, people can, and will, forge ANYTHING where there is money to be made.

Can I authenticate definitively  your helmet sight unseen (or even in the hand for that matter)?  Absolutely not! To me, yours looks genuine as stated earlier.

Non-magnetic shell with a magnetic rim is a pointer in the right direction.

Read the previous threads on steel helmets and you will see that this has been mentioned.

Another supposed test for authenticity, is to place the helmet on a perfectly flat surface; a genuine one will rock slightly from front to back.

If you are still concerned about authenticity, have a war museum curator or a militaria dealer do an inspection.

Regards,

JMB

Sounds good- thanks again!

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Looks fine to me. Often come up for sale in the US and I bought a number about 15 years ago as not so easy to find here in the UK. Prices have shot up even for just a shell in seems. Regards, Paul.

PS I have a BS 40 stamped shell. 

Edited by Wardog
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1 hour ago, Wardog said:

Looks fine to me. Often come up for sale in the US and I bought a number about 15 years ago as not so easy to find here in the UK. Prices have shot up even for just a shell in seems. Regards, Paul.

PS I have a BS 40 stamped shell. 

Yes they do… I see a number of people online at random places who say they bought a Brodie/M1917 for like 10 bucks, and I can’t even imagine it!

 

anyhow, thanks for commenting. Similar to what I’ve asked here previously:

 

1.) do the letters BS look fine to you?

2.) is your helmet (by any slim chance) uneven on one side over the other? The “right side brim” is longer from the dome (by about a quarter to have an inch) than the left side brim. Any chance yours is like that? Or any other possible Brodie’s that you may own?

3.) is your helmet non magnetic with a magnetic rim also?

 

sorry for the questions- I just don’t want to have been duped!

 

thanks!

1 hour ago, Wardog said:

Looks fine to me. Often come up for sale in the US and I bought a number about 15 years ago as not so easy to find here in the UK. Prices have shot up even for just a shell in seems. Regards, Paul.

PS I have a BS 40 stamped shell. 

AND ALSO, just for a compare and contrast, could you by any chance take a picture of the BS stamp as well as the D bails on yours? If not it’s perfectly alright. Thanks again!

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Appreciate you're new to these so it's easy to understand, but you're overthinking it a bit.

The shell is absolutley fine for what it is, and the markings are absolutely correct. Rims are magnetic, while later shells are not. (Although there are far more magnetic shells out there that than the literature would suggest too).

Nobody is faking these, let alone the heat marks. There are new helmets available for reenactors, yet they are really obvious and wouldn't really fool anyone. More likely you might encounter a new replacement liner in an original shell but, again, should be easy enough to spot.

IMHO $200 CAD is slightly high for this but not so far away that you should feel mugged. My feeling is, if you have the resources, is to try to put together $450 - $650 CAD and get a very good, plain complete item (selling this shell to offset the cost).

With your level of knowledge of these, I'd probably avoid eBay at this stage. I'd also avoid painted items (i.e. with insignia) at this stage too, unless from someone very reputable.

Some dealers nearer you - to make shipping and customs easier - who are reliable (but with awful websites) are: 

Michel Perrier: 

http://www.militaria.qc.ca

Jeff Shrader

https://www.advanceguardmilitaria.com; and

Scott Kraska

https://www.baystatemilitaria.com/

Unfortunately, forum rules mean we can't tell you which dealers - or, in advance of purchase, items - to avoid.

Cheers,

GT.

 

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3 hours ago, Grovetown said:

Appreciate you're new to these so it's easy to understand, but you're overthinking it a bit.

The shell is absolutley fine for what it is, and the markings are absolutely correct. Rims are magnetic, while later shells are not. (Although there are far more magnetic shells out there that than the literature would suggest too).

Nobody is faking these, let alone the heat marks. There are new helmets available for reenactors, yet they are really obvious and wouldn't really fool anyone. More likely you might encounter a new replacement liner in an original shell but, again, should be easy enough to spot.

IMHO $200 CAD is slightly high for this but not so far away that you should feel mugged. My feeling is, if you have the resources, is to try to put together $450 - $650 CAD and get a very good, plain complete item (selling this shell to offset the cost).

With your level of knowledge of these, I'd probably avoid eBay at this stage. I'd also avoid painted items (i.e. with insignia) at this stage too, unless from someone very reputable.

Some dealers nearer you - to make shipping and customs easier - who are reliable (but with awful websites) are: 

Michel Perrier: 

http://www.militaria.qc.ca

Jeff Shrader

https://www.advanceguardmilitaria.com; and

Scott Kraska

https://www.baystatemilitaria.com/

Unfortunately, forum rules mean we can't tell you which dealers - or, in advance of purchase, items - to avoid.

Cheers,

GT.

 

Oh yes, def overthinking it ***. And believe me, I know to avoid painted ones (I’m already an M1 helmet collector, and that is rife with fakes). And thank you for  those links, that really helps and means a lot to get. Thanks!

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I'm not sure if I've asked before about this 25th Division commemorative insignia helmet but I am interested in information on the red triangle with centre bar-Blue/Black? Any known connection to the Division with such a triangle? Regards, Paul.

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