Help with CCS Gommecourt area 1st March 1917

[Bob Davies]

Hello all, I am looking for some help please. My Grandfather 4152 Pte Jack Griffin. 1/5th Leicesters. Lincoln and  Leicester Brigade. 46 North Midland Division. On or around 1st March 1917 at Gommecourt  he received GSW head. His Uncle Oliver found him walking down a trench with his hand held to his head, no helmet and a lot of blood. I presume that he was then taken to the regimental aid post, then to the advanced dressing station, then to the Casualty clearing station (CCS) and then into the casualty evacuation route back to England. Now, from what I have read, the CCS was number 32 at Warlencourt. Edit here; Should be spelt Warlincourt.  This I have deduced from the LLT and Kate Luards book 'Unknown Warriors'. However I need some help finding this place on a map. If it was this place?  Also ideas on where he would have gone from there, infact any maps or information on aid posts, dressing stations in the Gommecourt area. Even though he was walking, his wound was severe, about a 50 pence piece size of his skull was missing. His evacuation from the battlefield to home is a tribute to the dedication and expertise of all those involved. I thank them all. The picture ( pte Griffin, top left) is from the Daily Sketch 23rd April 1917.  Regards, Bob.

Edited 6 September , 2022 by Bob Davies

[EDWARD1]

32CCS War Diary WO 95 562-5 is available to download from the National Archives free after registering. They were situated at Warlencourt Halte in March 17. Can`t find on trench map but suggests its where the railway intersects the Warlencourt Road (around F11b 7.4)

[Bob Davies]

32 minutes ago, EDWARD1 said:

32CCS War Diary WO 95 562-5 is available to download from the National Archives free after registering. They were situated at Warlencourt Halte in March 17. Can`t find on trench map but suggests its where the railway intersects the Warlencourt Road (around F11b 7.4)

Thank you EDWARD1, that is a great help to me. Best wishes, Bob.

[TEW]

I can take a look at the evacuation later.

In the mean time there is some good news. He has a MH106 Medical Sheet at TNA,  the bad news is it's not online. The online description is quite detailed though.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16969572

TEW

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

I can take a look at the evacuation later.

In the mean time there is some good news. He has a MH106 Medical Sheet at TNA,  the bad news is it's not online. The online description is quite detailed though.

Thank you for this link TEW, very interesting. Yes quite a detailed description, the fore name is wrong but the number and the rest fits so it must be him. Do you think that there would be more given if I ask them to send me a copy? I look forward to seeing the evacuation you mentioned later. Best wishes, Bob.

Name: John Griffin.

Rank: Private.

Unit/Battalion/Regiment: 5 The Leicestershire Regiment.

Service number: 4152.

Age: 19.

Hospital(s): 2nd London General Hospital, Chelsea.

Condition/Injury/Disease: Gunshot wound of head, Depressed fracture of skull.

Details and Outcome: Patient admitted suffering with gunshot wound received 01/03/1917. Patient treated at several hospitals in France and England. Under course of treatment patient underwent operation, fragments of shrapnel removed. Further details of treatment given. Discharged.

Number of Pages: 1.

[TEW]

Difficult to say how much more the sheet will do contain. There is only one sheet so the TNA description could almost be a transcription of it.

Must be the right man, I see he was still re-numbered to 241453 sometime after the injury. Possible that the hospital staff used the more formal John as being the correct form (in their  opinion) for Jack.

By all means submit a copy request, the quote could be eye-watering. Probably cheaper to find a researcher but would be a nice thing to have.

TEW

[Bob Davies]

6 hours ago, TEW said:

Difficult to say how much more the sheet will do contain.

Thank you TEW. I will ponder over that for a time yet. Now I have been doing some digging. Warlincourt Halt British Cemetry is pretty much as I see it the location of CCS 32 at Warlincourt. There is another CCS very close by at a place called Soterneau on sheet 51C SE grid V13.  link to map; https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465107  Warlincourt is just off this map to the west, however I found this map which I believe it to be in square U24. Link to map; http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A73661  Both are on the Doullens to Arras road, Warlincourt just off the road to the south and  Soterneau just off the road to the north. There is a Warlencourt British cemetry but that is not the one I am on about, only a slight variation in the spelling and we are miles away, my mistake in the first place, sorry as I think that is where @EDWARD1 thought I was referring to! Here on sheet 57C SW grid M 11. Link to map; https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465182 Best Wishes, Bob.

[TEW]

I agree with 32 CCS being at U.24 on your linked map. In square V.25 is Gaudiempre where the Main Dressing Station for 46 division was located. The evacuation route would be designed to get men from Gommecourt to CCS.

Having the MDS en route would either be for treatment purposes or a stage in the evacuation where another unit took wounded on to the CCS. In other words he may have stopped at the MDS simply to be taken on the final leg rather than admitted to it.

TEW

[Bob Davies]

I believe there is no doubt that CCS 32 were at Warlincourt Halte from 1st March 1917 as seen in their war diary. Also I believe they were there since Feb 17th 1917 as seen in the war diary. I am not able to post pictures from the war diary but trust me ;-) I can read, well most of it. There is a word I cannot decipher after Warlincourt Halte . Link to the war diary, free to use if you sign up with them https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/93178301bd2d431595a2a625699ea6bc

[Bob Davies]

13 minutes ago, TEW said:

I agree with 32 CCS being at U.24 on your linked map. In square V.25 is Gaudiempre where the Main Dressing Station for 46 division was located. The evacuation route would be designed to get men from Gommecourt to CCS.

Having the MDS en route would either be for treatment purposes or a stage in the evacuation where another unit took wounded on to the CCS. In other words he may have stopped at the MDS simply to be taken on the final leg rather than admitted to it.

Thank you Tew for looking, that is interesting information about the MDS. I had not got as far as looking into that yet. I went straight from another forum post which linked me to CCS 32 being near Gommecort and went from there, missing out the MDS.

[Bob Davies]

2 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

In square V.25 is Gaudiempre where the Main Dressing Station for 46 division was located. The evacuation route would be designed to get men from Gommecourt to CCS.

Yes it is on a direct route/road. I hope to get there some day, view the terrain and remember my Grandfather and the stories he told me about the war.

32 minutes ago, TEW said:

In square V.25 is Gaudiempre where the Main Dressing Station for 46 division was located. The evacuation route would be designed to get men from Gommecourt to CCS.

Yes it is on a direct route/road. I hope to get there some day, view the terrain and remember my Grandfather and the stories he told me about the war.

[TEW]

It's quite complicated with places I'm seeing being split across possibly three different 1:40,000 maps. Haven't found a nice composite map as yet which would help. I'm also having to check the Battalion/Brigade dispositions as the front line had moved up and now (1st March) included Gommecourt itself, the diary notes Bomb Fights  and an officer wounded by a sniper.

The brigade diary has a daily table of casualties per battalion for Feb & March.  4 men wounded 2nd March & 10 men wounded 3rd March. The battalion came out of the line and relief was complete at 11.20am on the 3rd. Nothing noted for the 1st but it may just be reporting time frames and delays.

I'm still checking other diaries and just found the largest file I've seen - a field ambulance diary running at 553 Mb!

Hopefully there will be details on the route and method to 32 CCS and from there to a base.

The Daily Sketch article is very useful as the passage of the Lanfranc can be traced back to departure from Le Havre 17/4/17.

TEW

[Bob Davies]

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

It's quite complicated with places

Thank you TEW, yes I believe it must have been a delay in reporting as I found the same as you in the battalion WD and the Brigade WD. It is all pretty much the same written in Captain Hills book The Fifth Leicestershire, as he was writing a lot of the WD. Link to his book here; https://archive.org/details/leicestershire00hilluoft/page/n13/mode/2up  2nd Lieut Cora was slightly wounded by a sniper on the 2nd March (page 172 in my hard copy). Which field ambulance diary are you looking at? I have not got that far yet.  Regards, Bob.

[TEW]

All three North Midland field ambulances. Plus the ADMS diary of 46 division should help. Then there's DDMS for the Corps,  DMS for the army. Unknowns as yet for ambulance trains & base areas.

MAC (Motor Ambulance Convoy) could be involved as well for the Gommecourt to 32 CCS via St. Amand & Gaudiempre evacuation.

I've just noticed that 32 CCS having arrived at Warlincourt Halte 17/2/17 didn't actually open for patients until 27/3/17. This is further complicated by the DMS 3rd Army stating that 383 wounded were evacuated from Warlincourt Halte on 8/3/17. It may be that other CCSs were using the Halte for loading. Something further to look into I think!

TEW

[TEW]

Another complication is that 46 Division switched from VII Corps to XVIII Corps possibly on 1/3/17. This could adjust the entire evacuation process.

XVIII Corps DDMS does mention the CCSs at Warlincourt Halte. This does mean that either 20CCS or 43CCS are more likely than 32! The latter is at Solerneau but was alternating admissions with 20 at the Halte. Both using the Halte for evacuations to Base.

TEW 

[Bob Davies]

46 minutes ago, TEW said:

This does mean that either 20CCS or 43CCS

Thank you thank you for your help on all these points Tew, I had read this about 20CCS and 43CCS being there, in a post from some years back, this one;

Clearing Station

---

By Pierre,
13 June , 2008 in The Western Front

and was having a delve into that. Work keeps getting in the way but it is all to the good ;-)

[chaz]

dont know if this will give an approximation of position, as of 1st July 1916

Gommecourt was one of our favourite places, usually plenty of metalwork around today. Always stopped on the way from Frevent .

[EDWARD1]

Easy to get confused, as they did over 100 years ago.

[TEW]

The pension letter listing CCS locations also says Warlencourt.

TEW

[Bob Davies]

6 hours ago, chaz said:

dont know if this will give an approximation of position, as of 1st July 1916

Thank you chaz, it is good to see a map such as that. How much changed over the 8 months I do not know, possibly not that much?

 

3 hours ago, EDWARD1 said:

Easy to get confused, as they did over 100 years ago.

Thank you EDWARD1, please accept my apologies for doubting you.

 

57 minutes ago, TEW said:

The pension letter listing CCS locations also says Warlencourt.

Thank you TEW,also the same spelling in my notes from various on line quotes about Kate Luards book. Same on 'the Long Long Trail'.

[Bob Davies]

On 30/10/2021 at 10:29, TEW said:

It's quite complicated with places I'm seeing being split across possibly three different 1:40,000 maps.

Hello TEW,  I see exactly what you mean here, Berles is on the next map up etc, and yes lots of downloads. Very interesting trying to put it all together. Thank you so much for your help. Bests wishes, Bob.

[TEW]

I'm still ploughing through it all. Numerous varibles here making it a complicated 'evacuation scenario'.

The three FAs from 58 Division were attached for training to 46 Division which means the potential number of dressing stations increases. Oddly, 2 of the 46 Div. FAs were under orders from 58th division.

Fonquevilliers ADS is the closest to Gommecourt. The Berles-au-Bois ADS seems a long way from Gommecourt (not what I'd call in an advanced position) but is then closer to the Halte CCSs.

The Berles bearer posts & RAPs would suggest they were not active in Gommecourt but clearing wounded from another part of the line.

Then there is another unit allied to 46 division FAs set up and receiving wounded in Humbercamp, even closer to the Halte.

I've not seen any RAPs mentioned for Gommecourt itself, even though it had only just been taken they would normally move up as close as possible.

At present I think the ADS in Fonquevilliers then to the Halte via Gaudiempre MDS seems the most likely.

TEW

[Bob Davies]

12 hours ago, TEW said:

I'm still ploughing through it all. Numerous varibles here making it a complicated 'evacuation scenario'.

Thank you TEW. Yes I thought that Berles was a bit far away but of the top of my head just now if there are 3 FA units and 3 Brigades in the Division possibly the 3rd FA were supporting one of the other Brigades a bit further north of Gommecourt. A bit too simplified perhaps  and as what you say ' Numerous variables' then we are yet to discover the true facts if we do at all. Your last words would seem to make perfect scene. 'At present I think the ADS in Fonquevilliers then to the Halte via Gaudiempre MDS seems the most likely'. Back to work for me now, regards, Bob.

[TEW]

Each FA has three sections so there is a theoretical nine possible medical posts, as the HCFA were allied to 46 division that could be doubled.

1/1 NMFA had been in Achicourt ADS which is even further away. All three sections arrived in Souastre early 1/3/17 but don't seem to have a role in the evacuation at all.

I note that 20 CCS says they were at Solerneau Halte then simplify it to just Halte. 43 CCS just use Solerneau (various spellings used).

Solerneau is in 51c V.13.c but there also Ferme de Saternault road (Google maps) which runs to the Halte in 57d U.24.

I've seen a small amount of men being sent to either to 20 or 43 CCS for this period.

I've copied the below from Scarlet Finders which comes from Matron in Chief's diary. June 1916.

Left early for 3rd Army. Went to 43 and 20 Casualty Clearing Stations at Warlencourt and Solerneau, on either side of a road, quite near a new railway siding. Both these units are only just opening and had just evacuated their first patients in the first train from this new siding. It was pouring with rain and had been doing so for 36 hours. Everything was looking, and was, most miserable, but everyone working and making the best of things. 20 CCS under canvas, 43 CCS partly under canvas and partly in an old Chateau which had not been inhabited for years, but which will later be alright. Everyone was working hard, cleaning, officers, nurses and orderlies. I had lunch there. In both Stations the Staff are suitably accommodated, 20 CCS in huts and under canvas; 43 CCS 1st floor of Chateau and Mess in a marque.

20CCS diary WO95/499 describes the move and setting up of the CCS in some detail, about 20 pages. The Chateau is mentioned as is a sunken lane. They describe the construction of the siding and the loading platform.

I think the Chateau is now the Ferme at 50.199516,2.520847 but both CCSs must have been spread out on both sides of the road with #20 to the north of this location?

TEW

[Bob Davies]

On 01/11/2021 at 14:27, TEW said:

Each FA has three sections so there is a theoretical nine possible medical posts, as the HCFA were allied to 46 division that could be doubled.

That is some fantastic searching and information you are sending me TEW, thank you so much. I have lots of reading to catch up on regarding this. I found some maps on McMaster showing all the places we are looking at on one map, which makes things easier to see in location to one another. Just type in Doullens into the search bar and a number come up, one from WW2 but the rest are WW1. Best Wishes, Bob.