AJC Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 Why would my Great grandfather have 2 service numbers? No. 1 Horse Transport Company With 47th Division, Territorial Force (service number-832) 844th Horse Transport Company (Service Number-T4/058509) He was a driver in both. Thanks in advance Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 October , 2021 Admin Share Posted 22 October , 2021 Welcome aboard @AJC As you had posted on a very old thread, I have split this into a new one. What was his name for starters please? The territorial forces were renumbered in 1917. Some information on ASC and renumbering here http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-army-service-corps-in-the-first-world-war/ http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/ Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 (edited) Welcome, Mike Young's book states that new regimental numbers were given to all Territorial Force personnel transferred in 1916. 832 would be his old TF number, and T4/058509 his new number. However, numbers from the block around 58509 suggest they was issued in April or May 1915. Do you have his service record? I see he was posted to the Balkans on 5/12/1915. Edited 22 October , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 Charlie Carter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 (edited) There was a Charles Carter of the ASC (2nd Ldn Div) no 832 but he was discharged sick 21/12/15 so he can hardly have landed Balkans 5/12/15 which is Charlie Carter's record Charles Carter 832 has Pension cards with his/widows address Edited 22 October , 2021 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 832's Silver War Badge Roll says no overseas service but his MIC gives him 15 Star BWM and VM (entry 16/3/15 France). All designed to confuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 455th Coy was 47th (2nd London) Division 844th Coy was 22nd Division TF and New Army, time served and re-enlisted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 2 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: TF and New Army, time served and re-enlisted? But dates clash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 Only on paper?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 We need feedback from OP Charles Carter 832 has widow Ellen Gertrude in 1933 at 1 Shepherds Place Kennington Rd, London SE11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: Only on paper?... Hmmm This is 832's 14/15 Roll which has an interesting note that might explain changes of service number. But there are two sets of Medals/MICs Edited 22 October , 2021 by charlie962 Courtesy Ancestry Medal Rolls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 The men on that roll either side of 832 have surviving service papers . Nothing suggesting other than unfit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 23 October , 2021 Admin Share Posted 23 October , 2021 tagging @AJC to alert him to the answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJC Posted 23 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2021 13 hours ago, charlie962 said: We need feedback from OP Charles Carter 832 has widow Ellen Gertrude in 1933 at 1 Shepherds Place Kennington Rd, London SE11 Thanks for all the very valuable information (and your time) I have to assume now that (TF) T/832 and T4/058509 are not the same person. (though a lot of dates match up) As T4/058509 (Charlie) Carters' spouse was Margaret and not Ellen. It is T4/058509 (844th Horse Transport Company) I am more interested in now. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to clarifying some possible issues with my search for further information. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 23 October , 2021 Share Posted 23 October , 2021 Well that sorts out the now non conundrum... The T4 prefix denotes ‘Kitchener’s’ fourth new army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 23 October , 2021 Share Posted 23 October , 2021 As an aside the 844th Coy wasn’t formed until 25th October 1916. He must have had previous service with another unit. His date of entry on the MIC may hold a clue to which unit he went overseas with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJC Posted 23 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2021 4 hours ago, jay dubaya said: As an aside the 844th Coy wasn’t formed until 25th October 1916. He must have had previous service with another unit. His date of entry on the MIC may hold a clue to which unit he went overseas with. Battalion:No. 844 Company Archive Reference: MH106/569 (1917 Mar 31-1917 Apr 7) No.31 Casualty Clearing Station: British other ranks, Greeks and Cypriots (and) MH106/587 (1917 Dec 15-1917 Dec 31) No.31 Casualty Clearing Station: British other ranks (Both- Ailment:Inflammation of Connective Tissue) I have attached a txt profile of what i know so far Charles Charlie Carter.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 23 October , 2021 Share Posted 23 October , 2021 Clearly we started off with two individuals, a Charlie and a Charles Carter. I realise this may appear as a basic question but it’s one I do not know the answer to. How do you know that your Charles or Charlie Carter served with the ASC and how do we know we have the right Charles or Charlie? There are several more Charles Carter, ASC on the MICs. As much factual information as you can add for your great grandfather would be appreciated and indeed helpful to proceed any further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJC Posted 23 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2021 1 hour ago, jay dubaya said: Clearly we started off with two individuals, a Charlie and a Charles Carter. I realise this may appear as a basic question but it’s one I do not know the answer to. How do you know that your Charles or Charlie Carter served with the ASC and how do we know we have the right Charles or Charlie? There are several more Charles Carter, ASC on the MICs. As much factual information as you can add for your great grandfather would be appreciated and indeed helpful to proceed any further. I was researching based on his medals an going back through what i know through my ancestry, Which i am happy to share the .ged file too. Here is one of his medals. (going further back and realizing, names* , dates, ages, military jobs and regiments/battalions all matched i had assumed that 832 was also "Charlie" *I must add "Charlie" was a nickname and he was in fact Charles on his birth certificate (Hence the still possible confusion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KernelPanic Posted 23 October , 2021 Share Posted 23 October , 2021 (edited) As Dai noted upthread, his 1914-15 medal roll shows him first disembarking in Greek Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria (2a) on Dec 5th 1915, and being discharged in June of 1919. (Ancestry.co.ok) Edited 23 October , 2021 by KernelPanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJC Posted 23 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, KernelPanic said: His 1914-15 medal roll shows him first disembarking in Greek Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria (2a) on Dec 5th 1915, and being discharged in June of 1919. (Ancestry.co.ok) How did you find that? That's an amazing piece of info thank you so much Found at:https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/5119/?name=c_carter&count=50&f-Self-Military-RegimentNumber=T4/058509&military=1915&name_x=_1 Edited 23 October , 2021 by AJC Answered own question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KernelPanic Posted 23 October , 2021 Share Posted 23 October , 2021 3 minutes ago, AJC said: How did you find that? That's an amazing piece of info thank you so much It's the Medal Roll for the 1914-15 Stars on Ancestry. Their search engine is a pain to use use, to put it mildly. You have to use their card index for military records and then search for the 1914 Roll. I then searched for 'Carter', Army Service Corps, and T4/058** (*=wildcard) in the service number. Unfortunately I missed out the heading of the Discharge column. Class Z I think was to the Army Reserves, which is I presume what A.R. stands for. Here's a bigger shot. (Ancestry.co.uk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KernelPanic Posted 23 October , 2021 Share Posted 23 October , 2021 (edited) I'm curious about his T4/058509. The medal is clearly a 1914-15 star. But as far as I know, T4/****** numbers weren't assigned to the ASC until at least September 1916. So why wasn't an earlier number given on the 1914-15 roll? My GGF was also in the horse transport of the ASC. His 1914-15 Roll number was T/977. He was then assigned T4/2478** in Sept 1916, which is on his BMW medal roll. BTW, your man's British War Medal Roll gives his first name as 'Charlie' (Ancestry.co.uk) Edit. To answer my own question about his T4 number, maybe this page on the LLT has the answer. Edited 23 October , 2021 by KernelPanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 October , 2021 Share Posted 23 October , 2021 13 minutes ago, KernelPanic said: I'm curious about his T4/058508. The medal is clearly a 1914-15 star. But as far as I know, T4/****** numbers weren't assigned to the ASC until at least September 1916. So why wasn't an earlier number given on the 1914-15 roll? T4 numbers existed 1915 Here are some near nuumbers for Carter showin enlistment c 31/1/15 T4 058501 Attested 2/2/15 T4 058059....... T4 058515 Enlisted 1/2/15 T4 058521 Enlisted 1/2/15 T4 058525 Enlisted 30/1/15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KernelPanic Posted 23 October , 2021 Share Posted 23 October , 2021 5 minutes ago, charlie962 said: T4 numbers existed 1915 Got it. Thanks. Just shows you how complicated the ASC numbering was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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