Enlistment Date Help

[Squarebear]

I am trying to determine the approximate enlistment date of a relative CHARLES CROUCH of the RA, service number 163402, who I believe fought in the RFA.

One of the tips I've read on the forum is to base my search on men with similar service numbers.

Is it safe to assume that service numbers are unique within the RA?  e.g. a soldier with a similar number who joined the RGA, or RHA, will have enlisted at around the same time as Gunner Crouch?

 

EDIT: Walter William Moody of RGA, service number 163403, enlisted June 1 1917. So I assume my man would have been around that time?

 

Edited 22 October , 2021 by Squarebear

[Lawryleslie]

His service and pension records do not appear on Ancestry so likely not to have survived Hitlers WW2 bombs in which around 60% were destroyed. However his medal record survived showing he was awarded BWM & VMwhich suggests enlistment post 1915. Incidentally the service number 163403 was Gunner William Henry Harper RFA according to Service Medal and award rolls. 

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Squarebear said:

 

Is it safe to assume that service numbers are unique within the RA?  e.g. a soldier with a similar number who joined the RGA, or RHA, will have enlisted at around the same time as Gunner Crouch?

Numbers will typically have been allocated around the same point in time but numbers were not always unique nor from the same numbering range. The RGA and RFA numbers are not in the same range.

When you look at the medal roll you will see other surrounding RFA men.,


https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_625537_9406-00179?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=38996ee6907de9da78e62b97baf39088&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AaS444&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=2307876

Craig

[Squarebear]

47 minutes ago, Lawryleslie said:

His service and pension records do not appear on Ancestry so likely not to have survived Hitlers WW2 bombs in which around 60% were destroyed. However his medal record survived showing he was awarded BWM & VMwhich suggests enlistment post 1915. Incidentally the service number 163403 was Gunner William Henry Harper RFA according to Service Medal and award rolls. 

Thanks.  So there were at least two men with that service number allocated.  Here's the man I found. (Not sure if a search result will work)

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1262&h=880542&tid=&pid=&queryId=9ad55aa0110026069f0a4b82e799a6d9&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Axf29&_phstart=successSource

[ss002d6252]

Yes, Moody was in the RGA range (which used a parallel numbering system).

#163404 Norris, RFA, was issued Oct 1916.

Craig

[Squarebear]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

Yes, Moody was in the RGA range (which used a parallel numbering system).

#163404 Norris, RFA, was issued Oct 1916.

Craig

Forgive me, Craig, for asking, but in an effort to stand on my own two feet I have been searching ancestry.com for each of the soldiers on the page you linked to, and am currently on the preceding page, but nowhere can I see any reference to issue date.  All I see generally is medal card/rolls. Please could you point me at where you see this (implied?) enlistment date? 

Edited 22 October , 2021 by Squarebear

[charlie962]

Just noting a link to OP's original post about Crouch here

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, Squarebear said:

Forgive me, Craig, for asking, but in an effort to stand on my own two feet I have been searching ancestry.com for each of the soldiers on the page you linked to, and am currently on the preceding page, but nowhere can I see any reference to issue date.  All I see generally is medal card/rolls. Please could you point me at where you see this (implied?) enlistment date? 

You'd have to look at the actual service records of other men, rather than the medal rolls. I use Find My Past for it as the search is far easier to use.

Craig

[Squarebear]

Gotcha.  Thanks.

(As an aside, I overheard a boxing fan remark the other day that despite subscribing to three sports tv packages he still didn't have coverage for the Tyson Fury fight.  Maybe WW1 research has similarities  )

[ss002d6252]

On 22/10/2021 at 14:38, Squarebear said:

Gotcha.  Thanks.

(As an aside, I overheard a boxing fan remark the other day that despite subscribing to three sports tv packages he still didn't have coverage for the Tyson Fury fight.  Maybe WW1 research has similarities  )

The service records are on both but the search on FMP is better whereas Ancestry has the filmstrip to allow you just to view pages in bulk and scan quickly through multiple records.

If they could just combine the two sites it would get my vote.

Craig

[Squarebear]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Just noting a link to OP's original post about Crouch here

Thanks Charlie.  I began a new thread as, perhaps naively, I felt this was a more general query that other newbies might benefit from rather than it be specific to my granddad.  In hindsight I should perhaps have linked to that earlier thread in my opening post.

I'll PM you about a related matter, if you don't mind, as I'd appreciate your input.

[butler]

If you search on Ancestry Silver War Badge Records imputing 'field' as a keyword and '163*' as the regimental number it will give you a list of silver war badges issued to the Royal Field Artillery with as service number beginning with 163.

If you go down the list and look up the individual entries with a service number near to 163402 it will show the enlistment date of the soldier

eg 

163213 Ernest Willsmore enlisted 16.2.16

163447 Albt Henry Clitherow enlisted 10.12.15

163495 Alexander Marchant enlisted 7.6.16

An enlistment date in November or December 1915 is probably the date when they attested under the Derby Scheme for later mobilisation

By picking numbers either side of 163402 it is possible to bracket Crouch's enlistment date and say it was between 16.2.16 and 7.6.16.

I have only gone through the first two pages of results. By going through all the search results it may be possible to reduce the size of the bracket. Also by picking out all those in the series 163000-163999 it is possible to confirm that they were issued in chronological order.

Service numbers were sometimes allocated in blocks to sub-units so the numbers are then issued chronologically by that sub-unit from their allocated block, and this should show up in the extended search 163000-163999 if that is the case.

 

 

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, butler said:

 

By picking numbers either side of 163402 it is possible to bracket Crouch's enlistment date and say it was between 16.2.16 and 7.6.16.

Keep in mind the caveat that the service number and enlistment date won't marry up if the men were transferred in form other units. Service records allow this to be spotted and accounted for but the SWB is far harder in this respect.

Craig

[charlie962]

squarebear,

I know you are keen to know where he was in 1916.

If you follow the advice above you will get a good idea from near-number surviving records but it is not conclusive.

Crouch may have attested under the Derby Scheme and trf'd to Army Reserve next day or perhaps had an early 1916 'Deemed enlistment' date but again treated as Reserve.

Norris's record is a good example and looking at a number of others then I suggest he wasn't mobilized until 14th October 1916.

He will then have joined the No4 (Territorial Force) Reserve Artillery Brigade at High Wycombe on 16/10/16 where he will have remained until some time between Nov 1916 and Jan 1917 at which point he will have been posted to an RFA Battery in Uk. Others seem to have gone to a variety of Batteries, eg:

      Tuck  163394 to  343 Bde on 12/12/16

      Crouch  163402 .............

       Norris 163404 to 396 Bty at Westhere? on 10/1/17 (the transfer list for all those who went with Norris survives and Crouch is NOT included)

       Several higher nos (eg 163454 and 163491)  went to 325 Bde on 28/11/16 but went overseas with labour battalions of the Infantry.

Somewhat inconclusive. @David Porter is the authority.

 

He will presumably have then been posted to another Battery or Divisional Ammunition Column and been sent overseas early 1917.

 

Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 October , 2021 by charlie962

[David Porter]

Charlie,

This thread doesn't need my help. Everything said so far is accurate. Mobilization a day or so before arriving at High Wycombe. Also highlighted is that quite a few of these men were posted to Home units around 2 to 3 months after joining. There are no other pointers without a surviving record. 

I have 163419 Robert Arthur Howard going to C/325 on December 1, 1916, which fits in this category.

Just for information the RGA numbering series lagged that of the RH and RFA by several months.

[charlie962]

29 minutes ago, David Porter said:

This thread doesn't need my help.

David, thanks for prompt response.

Confirmation by you is good help.

OP wants to track precisely  where Crouch was in UK or abroad at various times in 1916.

Can you confirm, please, that whilst he was with No4 TF Res Bde he would have been at High Wycombe throughout?

Those various 300 series Brigades/ Batteries- Is there any logic there? Geographically were they dispersed or in a particular area? eg, noting those I mentioned above,

LLT suggest 325-328 Bdes were in Essex after March 1916 before going to Ireland in Jan 1917. I suspect that a number of the men were posted to France at that point?

LLT suggests 343 Bde was at Bedford Nov 1915. Was it still there late 1916?

LLT says 396 Battery were at Westbere (not Westhere as I wrote above)- This was, I think, near Margate,

Thanks

Charlie

 

Edited 23 October , 2021 by charlie962

[David Porter]

11 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Those various 300 series Brigades/ Batteries- Is there any logic there? Geographically were they dispersed or in a particular area?

For the divisions that remained with Home Forces the picture is quite complex. Trying to fit the pieces together has been difficult. Lots of batteries were re-designated, either in the 500 Howitzer series or in 71st - 73rd Divisions. They also moved around between tented camps and winter billets. In addition there were Provisional Batteries that got re-designated twice. So where a man went after his spell at a Reserve Brigade is very hard to predict as the options increased,

Army Council Instruction 2403 of 1916, dated December 22, 1916, set out the creation of the batteries numbered 372 - 398. Westbere is closer to Canterbury than Margate.

[charlie962]

9 hours ago, David Porter said:

For the divisions that remained with Home Forces the picture is quite complex. Trying to fit the pieces together has been difficult. Lots of batteries were re-designated, either in the 500 Howitzer series or in 71st - 73rd Divisions. They also moved around between tented camps and winter billets. In addition there were Provisional Batteries that got re-designated twice. So where a man went after his spell at a Reserve Brigade is very hard to predict as the options increased,

Army Council Instruction 2403 of 1916, dated December 22, 1916, set out the creation of the batteries numbered 372 - 398. Westbere is closer to Canterbury than Margate.

thanks for that detail.

Charlie

[Squarebear]

Apologies, all.  I've recently been distracted, so have only now seen everyone's replies.  

Firstly, thank you to one and all for taking your time, and such care, fleshing out some of the possible movements/scenarios my grandfather may have negotiated.  Reading them in one go, as I just have, feels a little like being on a runaway horse but I will do my best to process each of them.

Thank you again.