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Remembered Today:

Sgt Michael Duggan, RFA / More info


jd3595

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Hi all

So I've scoured all the paid and free sights to find the medal card for my Great Grand Uncle Sgt Michael Duggan from Ireland. He served in the Royal Field Artillery under two Service Numbers (139775 & 267650). From what I can deduce he wasn't discharged until 1st March 1920. 

I have attached the documents that I have for him. His younger brother James was killed in action at the Battle of Le Pilly in 1914. I'm trying to gather the information together of both brothers to pay tribute properly. 

There's "another" Sgt Michael Duggan from the RFA with 895 as the Service Number who's medal card is attached who was given a Military Medal. I'm wondering if it could be him? Perhaps served under another number too?

If anyone could shed light on any of the following questions I would be eternally grateful.

 

Based on the 139775 Service Number, when approximately would he have signed up? Or possibly the 895 number too?

Why would he have had two/three Service Numbers from the same Corps/Regiment? 

Was a discharge date in 1920 unusual?

Is it possible to deduce the medals based on any of this information?

 

Thank you all so much in advance, you have no idea what I means to me and my family.

Regards, Jack

@jd3595 I’ve moved this to soldiers and renamed it to get more attention and hopefully answers.

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Since Sgt. Duggan 895 was awarded the Military Medal you may find him mentioned in local newspapers. The other documents you have attached would probably show MM after his name if he was the same person.

Regards,

Alf McM

 

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This card says something different for his discharge

1408416423_DugganJoseph(267650).jpg.aeac4be366d62890fcb6dd9eb6ab1194.jpg

It also says cancelled on the lower portion though...

 

George

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6 hours ago, jd3595 said:

He served in the Royal Field Artillery under two Service Numbers (139775 & 267650).

Just to check how you have found this out? Is it cross referencing addresses or other information?

George

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  • Michelle Young changed the title to Sgt Michael Duggan, RFA / More info
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If he was serving in 1920, would his papers be in the public domain? 

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His bothers CWGC record shows his parents at 25 Commissioners Buildings 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/858805/james-duggan/

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, jd3595 said:

two Service Numbers (139775 & 267650).

As you will note from that pension card crossing out, , he was 139775 ASC and then RFA 267650.

 

Find my Past have indexed one of those scraps of paper in another man's service file. It mentions Duggan twice, working for the ASC Remounts at Swaythling in Nov 1917:

961121102_GWFDugganMRASC.JPG.6c55f04133804ac46b4a676cbd6d9144.JPG

Lower down same page (under a heading 'Rations')802093166_GWFDugganMASCSvc2.JPG.aa20ed559968b233e5b55fa3d73f08d9.JPG

Edited by charlie962
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And by looking at near numbered ASC men with surviving records it is probable that:

He attested to the ASC c 17th September 1915

He was possibly posted to Swaythling Depot 7th March 1916

He was still Swaythling based in Dec 1917

He was compulsorily trf'd to the Artillery (3rd Reserve Brigade RFA )  c26 Apr 1918 and given a new number 267650

 

I suggest he remained in UK throughout hence why no Medal index Card

Charlie

 

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Looking at #276656 Avery shows us that the number was allocated in Dec 1919 (and he was discharged July 1920).

Craig- you've transposed numbers which leads you to wrong conclusion !

 

Edited by charlie962
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The Long Long Trail here has useful background on ASC Remounts, incuding:

 

Swaythling (a collecting centre for horses trained at the other three centres for onward shipment overseas).

A view of the immense scale of these operations can be judged from the statistics for Swaythling, as published in the “Times” in April 1919. Up to 1 April, it had received 342020 horses and mules (317165 from the USA; 6712 from Ireland; 9357 home purchased; 8856 returned from France). On that day, 3530 animals were stabled and cared for by a staff of 757 men.

 

Charlie

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22 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

And by looking at near numbered ASC men with surviving records it is probable that:

He attested to the ASC c 17th September 1915

He was possibly posted to Swaythling Depot 7th March 1916

He was still Swaythling based in Dec 1917

He was compulsorily trf'd to the Artillery (3C Reserve Brigade RFA )  in Apr 1918 and given a new number 267650

 

I suggest he remained in UK throughout hence why no Medal index Card

Charlie

 

Craig- you've transposed numbers which leads you to wrong conclusion !

 

Ah ******. Still not got my head on straight at the moment.

Craig

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Hello Jack, @jd3595

And welcome to the Forum.  All of the soldiers who joined the Army for the duration of the war and were still fit enough when they were demobbed were transferred to Class Z of the Reserve in case the Armistice didn’t hold and fighting broke out again. They were retained in the Reserve until March 1920 (a bit after the Treaty of Versailles formally ending the war) then formally released. So it may be that your Gt Gd Uncle was simply in the Reserve between his demobilisation in 1919 and March 1920.  Further information is available at this link:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists/

David

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My notes say there is a photo in the Cork Examiner of James in 1914. 

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I have tagged @jd3595 to hopefully alert him to the answers on here.

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He has been back a few times since his first post but has not replied to all the help the pals have given. 

Edited by museumtom
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On 22/10/2021 at 05:49, alf mcm said:

Since Sgt. Duggan 895 was awarded the Military Medal you may find him mentioned in local newspapers. The other documents you have attached would probably show MM after his name if he was the same person.

Regards,

Alf McM

 

Thanks Alf! Think I have my answers now, much appreciated for the reply.

Best, Jack

On 22/10/2021 at 07:19, George Rayner said:

This card says something different for his discharge

1408416423_DugganJoseph(267650).jpg.aeac4be366d62890fcb6dd9eb6ab1194.jpg

It also says cancelled on the lower portion though...

 

George

Thanks George, much appreciated 

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On 22/10/2021 at 08:27, Michelle Young said:

If he was serving in 1920, would his papers be in the public domain? 

Thanks Michelle, possibly but haven't found any yet.

Much appreciated, Jack

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On 22/10/2021 at 08:54, museumtom said:

Thanks for that effort Tom. The family moved to 25 Commissioner's Buildings around 1907. Michael married a lady from 18 so that's why it would be 18 on these documents. James is listed in the 1911 Census in Fort Charles with around a hundred other young men, which means he was obviously based there at the time. Michael is in number 25 for the 1911 Census.

 

Thank you very much for you time, Jack 

On 22/10/2021 at 09:28, Michelle Young said:

His bothers CWGC record shows his parents at 25 Commissioners Buildings 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/858805/james-duggan/

 

 

 

Correct Michelle, James is from 25 and Michael married a lady from number 18 so that's what the discrepancy is.

 

Much appreciated, Jack

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18 hours ago, museumtom said:

My notes say there is a photo in the Cork Examiner of James in 1914. 

This is 10815 L/Cpl James Duggan, 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Regiment. Feel free to use it where ever you want 

Best, Jack

LCPL DUGGAN (1).jpg

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On 22/10/2021 at 14:01, charlie962 said:

The Long Long Trail here has useful background on ASC Remounts, incuding:

 

Swaythling (a collecting centre for horses trained at the other three centres for onward shipment overseas).

A view of the immense scale of these operations can be judged from the statistics for Swaythling, as published in the “Times” in April 1919. Up to 1 April, it had received 342020 horses and mules (317165 from the USA; 6712 from Ireland; 9357 home purchased; 8856 returned from France). On that day, 3530 animals were stabled and cared for by a staff of 757 men.

 

Charlie

Charlie this is an incredible amount of information, thank you so so much. I'm glad to be able to piece all of this together before his memory is lost forever.

This is Michael, feel free to use anywhere you please.

Eternally grateful, Jack

2021-04-24_003957-01.jpeg

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6 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

I have tagged @jd3595 to hopefully alert him to the answers on here.

Apologies for the delayed replies Michelle, the information is invaluable.

5 hours ago, museumtom said:

He has been back a few times since his first post but has not replied to all the help the pals have given. 

Apologies for the delayed response Tom, all help is graciously appreciated.

Best, Jack

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19 hours ago, David26 said:

Hello Jack, @jd3595

And welcome to the Forum.  All of the soldiers who joined the Army for the duration of the war and were still fit enough when they were demobbed were transferred to Class Z of the Reserve in case the Armistice didn’t hold and fighting broke out again. They were retained in the Reserve until March 1920 (a bit after the Treaty of Versailles formally ending the war) then formally released. So it may be that your Gt Gd Uncle was simply in the Reserve between his demobilisation in 1919 and March 1920.  Further information is available at this link:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists/

David

David this is fantastic, thank you ever so much.

Jack

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8 minutes ago, jd3595 said:

This is Michael, feel free to use anywhere you please.

That photo of Michael Joseph Duggan raises a further question. The shoulder title is curved and neither the ASC nor the ASC used that.

@FROGSMILE may be able to suggest whether it says REMOUNTS ? As he was born 1893 he could have served in another unit prewar perhaps?

Charlie

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