Position of 18 Hussars 13/5/15 & 2nd Sherwood Foresters 29/6/1915, near Wieltje

[Ian C]

Hi

I posted this earlier in 'Soldiers' but think it might be better here.

I am helping a lady from Australia to find more info about her above named grandfather.

We know he was KIA on 13/5/15 in the Wieltje area and I have just come across the attached note stating that he was buried by the 2 Sherwood Foresters on or about 29/6/15, in front of their trenches.

Does anyone have a map or maps that would show where the 18 Hussars were on 13/5 and where the Sherwood Foresters were on 29/6/15 or know how I can find them?

Regards

IanC

[Bob Davies]

On 18/10/2021 at 18:21, Ian C said:

Does anyone have a map or maps that would show where the 18 Hussars were on 13/5

Hi Ian C, I have been having a look for you on and off in various places but no map of the exact period/date has surfaced for me yet. There is this one from another topic on the GWF the front line goes through the middle of the village.

 

• 
• Old Sweats
• • 127
• Location:Wiltshire
• Interests: Ypres, Seventh Division, Twenty-First Infantry Brigade, Wiltshire Regiment, General Sir Ivor Maxse, RFA, RGA

Posted 2 May , 2020

Slightly cleaner map, with more normal orientation - trenches as at 9-9-16. 

Source - G H Smith Bookshop reprint of KRRC Museum copy of Trench Map 28 NW Edition 4A

  but for a year later. However I don't think things changed that much as the 2nd Sherwood Foresters describe their line extending from and including Wieltje in a north westerly direction, on a front of 2,500 yards.  The best I have yet is a description from their war diary. Diary is here at the National archives WO-95-1113-1_1; https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351438

[Bob Davies]

Further to this, the 2nd Cavalry Brigade War Diary gives some grid references. So with a bit of looking we can work this out.  I have to finish for this evening now. Regards, Bob. Link to war diary here; https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14016504

[WhiteStarLine]

4 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

I have to finish for this evening now. Regards, Bob.

Bob's done the hard work so the easy bit is working out where the Brigade was.  These were the positions mentioned as occupied on the 12th and defended on the 13th.  Click to enlarge.  Note that the war diary gave references to the nearest sub-square (500 x 500 yards) so each pin really represents the centre of an area where the left of the front line was,  The 18th Hussars held the left of the line.  The red pins show the 3 areas Germans were seen massing at 9am.

As Bob has pointed out, the trench map is from the National Library of Scotland via tMapper and is actually 1917, as not many 1915 maps are available.  It is representative of trench systems generally.  A trench map from July 1915 appears below, courtesy of IWM / WFA. 

[Bob Davies]

15 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Bob's done the hard work so the easy bit is working out where the Brigade was.  These were the positions mentioned as occupied on the 12th and defended on the 13th.

Thank you WhiteStarLine for completing this and sticking in the map pins, I have to work out how to do that on the computer! The Brigade war diary makes interesting reading, it must have been hell on earth. Taking over a dilapidated trench that was up to 30 odd feet wide in wet conditions, being told there is no giving up the position no matter the cost and then getting shelled by howitzer from 3 30 in the morning until dusk. Here is a snippet from the diary;

[Bob Davies]

Further to this the 9th Lancers are relieved on the 14th may 1915  by the Royal Irish Fusiliers. No maps shown in the 9th Lancers or 4th Dragoon Guards war diaries. Both with the 2nd Cavalry Brigade.  4th Dragoon guards are relieved by the 2nd East Surrey Regiment, 85th Brigade, 28th Division. Possibly there may be a map if we look at the Royal Irish Fusiliers? If you need further maps? Best wishes, Bob.

[Max Vonstarn]

Hi Ian, sorry, rather late to this and I know this wasnt your specific question but there is a regimental history which includes a description of the engagement and the casualties which may be of interest.

http://www.newmp.org.uk/sitedocs/Memoirs_of_the_18th_(QMO)_Royal_Hussars_1906-1922.pdf

See page 98.

Cheers

[Max Vonstarn]

Actually he is mentioned on page 101 by name. Here is the extract in case the link doesnt work;

'Then those tried and trusted non-commissioned officers, who had done so well in peace time and during the war, men who knew their troops inside out, who had initiative, and who could not only instruct but also lead their men, who were certain  of promotion and who would have done the Regiment so much future good : how we regretted their death, and how little we could show it  Sergts. Armitt, Graham and Craig were men it seemed impossible to do without, but it had to be so. Sergts. Holt and Eaft had gone too, and Sergt. Attree, the latter pluckily and successfully regaining his old place in the Regiment at the time. It seemed there was no end to our losses and we should have no leaders left.'