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Remembered Today:

Fosse 8 - Hohenzollern Redoubt


Simon Birch

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Does anyone know what the 1915 height of the Dump at Fosse 8 was, and how that compares to the remnants of today?

Many thanks in advance.

Simon

 

 

Edited by Simon Birch
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Which Fosse 8?

Results for search Fosse 8

Place Map Sheet # Map Squares
Fosse 8 36cNW4 I30
Fosse 8 36cSE1 P17
Fosse 8 bis 36cSE1 P17
Fosse No 8 de Bethune 36cNW3 G5
Fosse No 8 dite Bonne-Es??? 45SW2 O35
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8 hours ago, jonbem said:

contours on the map

I suspect this is not what Simon is looking for. I checked around a dozen maps last night and none had the height of the man made feature on them.  The contours on the ground were marked but that is the height above mean sea level of the natural earth.

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Thanks to all for your help. Last night it dawned on me to look at the Official History Vol. 2 1915. On page 235 it says 'The Dump was huge flat-topped slag-heap, twenty feet high with an excellent view over the district on all sides' That is a huge difference from the wiki page, I agree with you Michelle it does say 62m (62m equals 203 feet). But unless I am yet again missing something really obvious one of them has to be wrong. Am wondering if the wiki page should read 6.2m which would be 20' 4"...

Simon

 

 

Simon

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14 minutes ago, Simon Birch said:

it dawned on me to look at the Official History Vol. 2 1915.

Funny, I looked at a dozen trench maps but never even thought of opening the OH!  Thanks for the update.

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There is also a picture of Fosse 8 on TLLT under Battles - Loos - 9 Div. I had a read of the WDs of 9 Div HQ GS and the RE. The supporting papers of the Div HQ show that the importance of Fosse 8 was realised but I could find no descriptions or plans of the Fosse.

Brian

 

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Thanks to all. Strange that there appears to be no answer though - will keep looking!

thanks again 

Simon

 

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And me, I have always concentrated on Hill 70 in the South and was unaware of the importance of Fosse 8, which, in two accounts I read in the WD of the 9 Div HQ GS "overlooks the whole region" (Scheme for the capture of HR - Ancestry p 216/824) and "completely dominates the ground" (Report - Ancestry p 314/824). This map courtesy TNA is on p 463/824.

Brian 

fosse 8.jpg

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I can’t remember which book unfortunately, but it recalls Fosse 8 being well armed with machine guns. Will ask Mr Young later, he might recall. 

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2 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

And me, I have always concentrated on Hill 70 in the South and was unaware of the importance of Fosse 8, which, in two accounts I read in the WD of the 9 Div HQ GS "overlooks the whole region" (Scheme for the capture of HR - Ancestry p 216/824) and "completely dominates the ground" (Report - Ancestry p 314/824). This map courtesy TNA is on p 463/824.

Brian 

fosse 8.jpg

Interesting map - thanks for sharing.

Simon

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  • 1 month later...

While this is a 1917 aerial from IWM it covers squares 36c.G.4 and G.5, extending from Cross Trench to The Dump and Slag Alley.  Zooming in (click to enlarge) gives some indication of the feature.  Note the aerial is not strict North - South aligned.

image.png.ba40fba7d5ad25d0b749970efba431f3.png

image.png.96bac60cc1e0d400f3fbd13129a173c1.png

 

 

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Chapter 13 of George Coppard's With a Machine Gun to Cambrai Is entitled "Fosse 8". On going up to the area in October 1915, he says "The dominating feature here was Fosse 8, a black heap of coal waste about eighty to one hundred feet high ...". He was writing from memory about 50 years after the event, but it might be expected that his recollection of this detail would be reasonably accurate, or only slightly exaggerated by the lasting impression left by the "black mass which seemed to tower over us". He talks about "faint eddies of smoke puffing forward from machine guns firing from the bowels of the Fosse, no doubt dug in and camouflaged in some way", so possibly this is the book you were thinking of @Michelle Young , though he also mentions being fired on by mortars and rifle grenades from the Fosse.

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I don’t think it was that one, it’s a book I’ve read more recently than the Coppard one. 

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Going back to relevant passages in Niall Cherry’s ‘Most Unfavourable Ground’ and Andrew Rawson’s ‘Loos-Hohenzollern’ in the Battleground Europe series, it is clear that Coppard’s memory was at fault and the Dump was some six metres high. And that Fosse 8 was very well fortified. though I failed to find a specific reference to the number of machine guns.

All credit then to the units that captured both positions, notably the 7th Seaforths, among them my relative Capt. Harry Pynson Bennitt, who died of wounds received in the action.

Cheers Martin B

 

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My Great Grandfather, CSM 7th Seaforths, was wounded on the 25th. of September during the assault on the Hohenzollern Redoubt. He died December 1916 from complications associated with gangrene. A photograph shows him in his hospital bed, Perth I think, and it would appear both his legs were amputated. He previously stated that both his legs received machine gun bullets.

I have attached an article which he wrote describing his experiences on the 25th. I have previously posted the same article however the map attached by Brian Morris caught my attention. On that map the 7th Seaforth section has four red dashes at the front and behind another four red dashes and again behind eight red dashes. The map key indicates that a dash referred to a platoon. So from my understanding one company at the front with another behind. Behind the latter another two companies. It would appear that all companies of the 7th were committed to their objective initially moving forward by company.

From my reading of the article it would appear that my relative was in the forward company. However I accept I may be wrong ! His last sentence states the Seaforths took the Redoubt. He does not refer to Fosse 8 which to me suggests again he was in the forward company with other companies behind going forward to their objective over cleared ground. In such an attack would individual companies be given specific objectives ?

The reason I am interested is that with his article and various maps, particularly the map posted by Brian, I can more or less pinpoint the assault line as it moved forward to the distance where he lay on the ground. I previously wrongly assumed that all companies attacked at the same time in the same line and that would have made it difficult to locate the position along the line where he was wounded on the battlefield. However if one company (with one CSM ?) left the trenches in platoons followed by another company it might be easier to locate the area. In order to locate the specific point I have to assume as CSM he was towards the centre of the company. Would that be wrong or an acceptable assumption ?

His article indicates the distance moved forward to the point of being wounded and assuming he was in the centre of the company I can more or less determine where on the battlefield I think he was wounded.

My Great Grandfather also refers to the Pipe Major. Is it possible to name the chap who was of great assistance ?

Thanks for posting the map.

 

 

image.jpeg

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Thanks for that. Yes, the battalion went on through Fosse 8 and pushed as far as the  Dump, at heavy cost. This is not to forget of course the other battalions of 26 Brigade who played their part in the assault: 5th Camerons, 8th Black Watch and 8th Gordons.

Cheers Martin B

 

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Sorry to learn of the fates of Captain Bennitt and Sergeant-Major Dean, and thank you, @robbie56 for posting the newspaper cutting. It is particularly sad that he didn't make it in the end after surviving to the CCS against the odds.

@Simon Birch, there is a piece in the WD of the Buffs, 2nd Battalion, for 28th September 1915 that refers to the height of the "Dump at Fosse 8", and @Michelle Young, the same piece also refers to the number and situation of the machine guns.

The WD describes the attack on the Dump at 10.00am on that date thus:

"B" and "C" Coys, followed by "A" Coy, charged across the open [towards the Dump], and were greeted with the fire from machine guns massed on either flank, also shell and rifle fire. 11 machine guns, at least were afterwards counted firing from the Miners' Cottages and Slag Alley.  "B" and "C" Coys - everyman cheering - gained the edge of the Dump, and; clambering up the crumbling slopes of the 30 feet high Dump, gained the summit ... The Coys crossed the large expanse of the Dump summit and attempted to reach the enemy in the trenches at the foot ..."

Unfortunately, the attack failed with heavy loss of life owing to them being exposed to shelling, grenades etc.

The WD includes the map reproduced below, courtesy of NA:

1985340077_Fosse8Map0001.jpg.5eb3e2eb8479d060de653bc1e7366335.jpg

On 26/11/2021 at 12:58, Martin Bennitt said:

Coppard’s memory was at fault

Yes, clearly there is a discrepancy. I do find it puzzling, though, that Coppard, even after a period of 50 years, should seemingly have recreated in his imagination a scene where the Fosse was not just higher than it had been in real life, but more than three times as high, given that, as a machine gunner, he would surely have been quite good at accurately estimating distances and heights. Maybe the fact that he would have been at a lower level in a trench, or maybe even a crater, might have contributed, or maybe he was thinking of the height of the buildings (there seems to be quite a high chimney in the photo on the LLT). Also, the map and photo posted by @WhiteStarLine may show a slightly raised area in the centre of the Dump?

Edited by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
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12 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Sorry to learn of the fates of Captain Bennitt and Sergeant-Major Dean, and thank you, @robbie56 for posting the newspaper cutting. It is particularly sad that he didn't make it in the end after surviving to the CCS against the odds.

@Simon Birch, there is a piece in the WD of the Buffs, 2nd Battalion, for 28th September 1915 that refers to the height of the "Dump at Fosse 8", and @Michelle Young, the same piece also refers to the number and situation of the machine guns.

The WD describes the attack on the Dump at 10.00am on that date thus:

"B" and "C" Coys, followed by "A" Coy, charged across the open [towards the Dump], and were greeted with the fire from machine guns massed on either flank, also shell and rifle fire. 11 machine guns, at least were afterwards counted firing from the Miners' Cottages and Slag Alley.  "B" and "C" Coys - everyman cheering - gained the edge of the Dump, and; clambering up the crumbling slopes of the 30 feet high Dump, gained the summit ... The Coys crossed the large expanse of the Dump summit and attempted to reach the enemy in the trenches at the foot ..."

Unfortunately, the attack failed with heavy loss of life owing to them being exposed to shelling, grenades etc.

The WD includes the map reproduced below, courtesy of NA:

1985340077_Fosse8Map0001.jpg.5eb3e2eb8479d060de653bc1e7366335.jpg

Yes, clearly there is a discrepancy. I do fid it puzzling, though, that Coppard, even after a period of 50 years, should seemingly have recreated in his imagination a scene where the Fosse was not just higher than it had been in real life, but more than three times as high, given that, as a machine gunner, he would surely have quite good at accurately estimating distances and heigts. Maybe the fact that he would have been at a lower level in a trench, or maybe even a crater, might have contributed, or maybe he was thinking of the height of the buildings (there seems to be quite a high chimney in the photo on the LLT). Also, the map and photo posted by @WhiteStarLine may show a slightly raised area in the centre of the Dump?

Thanks one and all.

Strange there appears not to be a photograph of  Fosse 8, at least not one I have found. I had always thought about 30' sounded plausible. We all know how the passage of time an distort memory, but even so 30 to 100' is a huge difference. 

Thanks one and all for your help.

Simon

 

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Simon

Please see my post 19/10/2021. There is a picture on TLLT.

The best map I have found, which still does not answer the question, is in the October 1915 WD of 28 Div CRA. On Ancestry in Div HQs - 28 Div - 2669/1. It is marked as the WD of 28 Div A&QMG but is in fact the WD of the CRA. (The AQ WD is under Commander Royal Artillery).

Ancestry p 348 to 350/350. There is another map on p 340 but it does not show the British trenches. I had a look in the WDs of the Guards Div for the October ops and 12 Div who were supposed to take Fosse 8 in November but I could not find anything.

Brian

28 CRA.jpg

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Brian,

That’s a cracking map - better than l ones l had found. When I look at Fosse 8 [or did until the dreaded covid appeared] it’s a humbling place. All that terrific violence and destruction- yet you would hardly know. Personally l don’t believe in ghosts etc. but there is something about that place that draws me back.

thanks again one and all

Simon

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A good find in the WD of 2 East Kents by Tricia.

Brian

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Paul

The NLS system does not have a lot of 1915 maps. The best way to find them for Loos is to look on the Long Long Trail under Battles, find the Divisions involved and then search the War Diaries of the Divisional HQ General Staff and of the Infantry Brigades. 

I did buy a Trench Map Sheet 36C NW 3 from the bookshop at TNA and it shows the Dump and the Hohenzollern Redoubt but not in the detail shown on the map above. My interest is in Hill 70 and Bois Hugo. 

Brian

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