Possible non-comms

[temptage]

As I have mentioned in my last 2 posts, I have been scouring the burial registers for Cleethorpes Cemetery. So far I have found the graves of one WW1 casualty and one WW2 who are both named on Tower Hill Memorial, but I have found several other 'maybes' which I will list below. I have obviously checked their names against the CWGC RoH, but none of them are listed.

If anyone has access to crew lists etc this may be right up your street!

First up we have Giuseppe Reevell(?) Vadala who died on 17th December 1914. Stated as 'died at sea'. Now obviously he could have been on a cargo ship plying its trade, but then again he could have been on a fishing boat or trawler, possibly sailing out of Grimsby. Grimsby had many foreign crew members serving on fishing boats or armed trawlers. I have seen Norwegians, Dutch, French, Belgian and Italians all named on 'local' crews.

 

Next we have Charles Chase, died at sea on 9th March 1916.

 

 

Next we have Charles Lambert, an Engineer, died sometime in early October 1916, precise date unknown, body found floating in the Humber, buried 20th October 1917

 

 

Then we have William Russell, Chief Engineer on SS Speedwell, drowned at sea on 19th March 1917

 

 

Then we have John Dart, Engineer on the SS Rollo, died at sea on 1st November 1918

 

 

Next is Henry John Smith, served on a Minesweeper, died 20th October 1919. He could well have been discharged by that date.

 

 

And finally James William Lord, also served on a Minesweeper, died 11th October 1919. Again, possibly discharged by then.

 

Edited 16 October , 2021 by temptage

[PaulC78]

Found these three in the "Deaths at Sea" register on FMP:

• Charles Chase - Deck Hand, "Margaret", died 9/3/1916 from heart disease
• William Russell - 1st Engineer, "Speedwell", drowned 19/3/1917
• John Dart - 1st Engineer, "Rollo", died 1/11/1918 from pneumonia

[charlie962]

James William Lord has a Service record RNRT under ES 3670. Also two pension cards

Charlie.

[charlie962]

Henry John Smith has a Pension Card, courtesy Fold3 and Western Front Association

and a second card for Widow's Pension- under number 13408

Edit-- and a Service Record here under DA 13408

Edited 16 October , 2021 by charlie962

[PaulC78]

Found another two pension cards for Lord, but they only state that he was discharged and died on 12/10/1919 (much like the one above for Smith).

https://www.fold3.com/search?keywords=3670;lord&general.title.id=1019:UK,+WWI+Pension+Ledgers+and+Index+Cards,+1914-1923

[PaulC78]

Smith's record appears to say that he was invalided with pulmonary tb, so if he died from the same then he could probably go forward as a non-com.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8520909

[charlie962]

Does the entitlement to a disability pension and the widow's subsequent entitlement to a pension tell us anything by way of confirmation? I think both Lord and Smith fall into this cat.

Edited 16 October , 2021 by charlie962

[PRC]

1 hour ago, temptage said:

Next we have Charles Lambert, an Engineer, died sometime in early October 1916, precise date unknown, body found floating in the Humber, buried 20th October 1917

Would seem an amazing co-incidence if the 34 year old Charles Lambert normally resident on Coombe Street whose death was reported in the Hull Daily Mail on the 17th October 1917 wasn't the same man - but it's a very different story to the one set out above.

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Cheers,
Peter

 

 

[charlie962]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

but it's a very different story to the one set out above

A bit more on that explosion, again courtesy FinddmyPast

 

Was she fishing or doing war work?

Edited 16 October , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Inquest on Charles Lambert , courtesy FMP. At least one newspaper stated KingHarold was on a fishing trip.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, temptage said:

Then we have John Dart, Engineer on the SS Rollo, died at sea on 1st November 1918

Looks like it should be Steam Trawler Rollo. Very small snippet in the Lincolnshire Echo, Monday, November 4th, 1918.

The Grimsby steam trawler Rollo returned to port on Saturday and landed the body of John Dart (27), chief engineer, of 72 Harrington-street, Cleethorpes, who died suddenly at sea on Friday, from, it is said, influenza and pneumonia.

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[temptage]

Excellent work Gents. So far then, we have

 

Giuseppe Reevell(?) Vadala - nothing found

Charles Chase - heart disease - not war related

Charles Lambert - death not war related

William Russell - death not war related

John Dart - cause of death - influenza and pneumonia. Could this be caused by his service or aggravated by?

Henry John Smith - pulmonary TB as a cause? See Charlie962's comment below. Could he be a possible?

James William Lord - Another possible if his wife was in receipt of a pension?

19 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Does the entitlement to a disability pension and the widow's subsequent entitlement to a pension tell us anything by way of confirmation? I think both Lord and Smith fall into this cat.

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, temptage said:

Henry John Smith - pulmonary TB as a cause? See Charlie962's comment below. Could he be a possible?

James William Lord - Another possible if his wife was in receipt of a pension?

If they died in service then it matters not the cause. If they were in the Reserve, does this not count as still being in service?

[temptage]

On 17/10/2021 at 23:08, charlie962 said:

If they died in service then it matters not the cause. If they were in the Reserve, does this not count as still being in service?

Does the fact that they were both awarded medals aid their acceptance? Looking at their Service Record Cards on TNA I have found these

Lord

 

and for Smith

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, temptage said:

Does the fact that they were both awarded medals aid their acceptance? Looking at their Service Record Cards on TNA I have found these

I believe the key thing is the existance of the service records, which shows they were a member of one of the organisations that is covered by the CWGC and that they served during the proscibed period for acceptance as Great War Dead. The award of medals is a kind of shorthand way of saying that but if that was all you had then it wouldn't be so black and white - playing devils advocate there could be multiple individuals with the same name.  And of course there are individuals who served with one of the organisation that is covered by the CWGC, who served during the relevant period, (August 1914 - August 1921) and yet who don't qualify for service medals - but they are still on the CWGC database and commemorated in perpetuity.

Once you get past those hurdles then you are on to the specifics - if they died post discharged and during the proscribed period was it related to a condition caused or aggravated during their service in the same period.

So which two do those service records relate to?

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

On 16/10/2021 at 22:59, charlie962 said:

Does the entitlement to a disability pension and the widow's subsequent entitlement to a pension tell us anything by way of confirmation? I think both Lord and Smith fall into this cat.

If in/been in a recognised organisation and death was in the relevant period one might think that as the nation had also apparently awarded pensions that liability had been accepted by the nation - but CWGC will not now accept this alone for commemoration [as apparently "the MoP made errors" - as if the military and I/CWGC didn't then/don't now].

Strange situation in my opinion - but obviously best/essential if a non-comm case application is now supported by other evidence too.  A DC appears de-rigueur for CWGC - and it will need to match service record(s), if available.

[Matching pension records, even if indicated, doesn't seem to do it at the moment!  = I have absolutely no idea on how CWGC might be persuaded to change its approach to pension records - though I personally think they should - perhaps by sheer weight of multiple applications ??? - so please don't give up!]

M

Edited 1 July , 2022 by Matlock1418
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