LCpl Horace Dunn, regiment ID please

[ElishebaSmith]

Lance Corporal Horace Dunn, my great, great uncle.

He was from Harrogate but unfortunately I don't know which regiment he was from.  Keen to hear suggestions if anyone any ideas? 

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, ElishebaSmith said:

Lance Corporal Horace Dunn, my great, great uncle.

He was from Harrogate but unfortunately I don't know which regiment he was from.  Keen to hear suggestions if anyone any ideas? 

The combination of dark shaded kilt and dark hose tops (woollen stockings) plus the diced glengarry suggests the Gordon Highlanders.  Unusually he appears to have no hose tabs/flashes (belled or otherwise). @4thGordonsand @gordon92might have comments. 

NB.  There was a yellow line in the Gordon’s sett but this wasn’t rendered in the orthochromatic film of the period and so is usually unseen.  See similar example below.  For the the kilt pin to be visible as in this case is quite unusual.

Edited 16 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

I’ve split this into a separate thread, to hopefully get more help and replies. 

[4thGordons]

I think the Gordons are a distinct possibility however they generally wear the kilt pin higher than shown here. In addition to the missing flashes, there seems to be a pattern on the hose tops? (not something I have seen before). Also seems to be missing his cap badge/silk patch where it would have been mounted (I think it would be visible given the angle of his Glengarry) 

So Gordons might be a starting point for an MIC search but I don't think there is enough to say with any certainty.

Chris

 

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

I think the Gordons are a distinct possibility however they generally wear the kilt pin higher than shown here. In addition to the missing flashes, there seems to be a pattern on the hose tops? (not something I have seen before). Also seems to be missing his cap badge/silk patch where it would have been mounted (I think it would be visible given the angle of his Glengarry) 

So Gordons might be a starting point for an MIC search but I don't think there is enough to say with any certainty.

Chris

 

Thanks Chris, that all sounds very sensible to me.  I did think there was something unusual visible on his hose tops but couldn’t see it clearly enough to feel confident to comment.  I agree that there is definitely something odd about his whole appearance, although I do think he’s a genuine soldier.

Edited 16 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The combination of dark shaded kilt and dark hose tops (woollen stockings) plus the diced glengarry suggests the Gordon Highlanders.  Unusually he appears to have no hose tabs/flashes (belled or otherwise). @4thGordonsand @gordon92mighr might have comments. 

NB.  There was a yellow line in the Gordon’s sett but this wasn’t rendered in the orthochromatic film of the period and so is usually unseen.  See similar example below.  To see the kilt pin is quite unusual.

 

48 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

I think the Gordons are a distinct possibility however they generally wear the kilt pin higher than shown here. In addition to the missing flashes, there seems to be a pattern on the hose tops? (not something I have seen before). Also seems to be missing his cap badge/silk patch where it would have been mounted (I think it would be visible given the angle of his Glengarry) 

So Gordons might be a starting point for an MIC search but I don't think there is enough to say with any certainty.

Chris

 

I agree with what has been written above that this is a Gordon Highlander.  Amongst the three regiments that wore kilt pins (2nd BW, Seaforth, Gordons), the only one that has the proper glengarry and tartan appearance matching the photo is the Gordons.  As Chris has mentioned, the kilt pin is low.  It should be centered on the second horizontal yellow line (not visible in this photographic rendering) from the bottom. Likely that this soldier mounted the pin lower so as not to have it obscured by the unusually long jacket without a cutaway.

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

 

I agree with what has been written above that this is a Gordon Highlander.  Amongst the three regiments that wore kilt pins (2nd BW, Seaforth, Gordons), the only one that has the proper glengarry and tartan appearance matching the photo is the Gordons.  As Chris has mentioned, the kilt pin is low.  It should be centered on the second horizontal yellow line (not visible in this photographic rendering) from the bottom. Likely that this soldier mounted the pin lower so as not to have it obscured by the unusually long jacket without a cutaway.

Mike

Thank you Mike. Pretty much unanimous it seems.  You raise a good point about the absence of a cutaway to the jacket perhaps influencing the position of the pin, but I suspect that he’s probably also a member of a war-raised service battalion and I think that they were often not as strict about minute detail as regular battalions would have been.

Edited 16 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

31 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you Mike. Pretty much unanimous it seems.  You raise a good point about the absence of a cutaway to the jacket perhaps influencing the position of the pin, but I suspect that he’s probably also a member of a war-raised service battalion and I think that they were often not as strict about minute detail as regular battalions would have been.

Yes, he is undoubtedly not a regular. He also wears his glengarry cocked to the wrong side. 

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, gordon92 said:

Yes, he is undoubtedly not a regular. He also wears his glengarry cocked to the wrong side. 

A typical case of a Northern Englishman posted into a highland regiment.  It was far more common in peace and war than many in Scotland would have you believe.

[Tawhiri]

Unfortunately the only H Dunn that I can find serving with the Gordon Highlanders in the medal rolls is a Hector Dunn, who was born in St Nicholas, Aberdeenshire, Scotland, in 1896. There is also a Lance Corporal H Dunn serving with the Seaforth Highlanders, but he seems to have been a Hugh Dunn. The lack of an appearance in the medal rolls doesn't mean that he didn't serve in the Gordon Highlanders, just that he never served in a theatre of war with them.

I'm assuming that he is the Horace Dunn who was born on 29 April 1894 in Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire, married Mary Wrigglesworth on 23 September 1925 in Harrogate, and on both his marriage in 1925 and in the 1939 England and Wales Register gave his occupation as solicitors clerk. He appears to have died in April 1977 in Claro, North Yorkshire.

[CorporalPunishment]

A corporal with a seriously ill-fitting jacket and an apparently badge-less glengarry cocked to his left. No disrespect intended but it all looks a bit iffy to me.    Pete.

[ElishebaSmith]

Thank you that is hugely interesting and helpful. What a knowledgeable group!

After reading your comments I can see that the uniform is rather ill-fitting and he is even holding a cigarette in his hand, which seems rather strange for what appears to be a studio shot.

Yes, Horace is the individual identified above as being born in Newcastle-under-Lyme. Unfortunately, I only developed an interest in family after my access to oral sources had gone and it can be hard to flesh out a person's story 'from documentary sources alone.  I am particularly intrigued by the comment about northerners joining highland regiments. Would he have had to have gone out of his way to join a Scottish regiment?

In a possibly related fact his sister, Sarah, married a Scot, William Wilson (my great-grandfather and great-grandmother), in 1919. I've also been unable to identify William's regiment, not least because he has a horribly common name, but it was not a kilted regiment so I doubt that Sarah met William through Horace . I will create a separate post to see if anyone has any views on William Wilson's regiment. 

Thank you again. I will concentrate my searches on the Gordon Highlanders. Perhaps I will have some luck if I can get access to Harrogate newspapers of the time. 

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, ElishebaSmith said:

Thank you that is hugely interesting and helpful. What a knowledgeable group!

After reading your comments I can see that the uniform is rather ill-fitting and he is even holding a cigarette in his hand, which seems rather strange for what appears to be a studio shot.

Yes, Horace is the individual identified above as being born in Newcastle-under-Lyme. Unfortunately, I only developed an interest in family after my access to oral sources had gone and it can be hard to flesh out a person's story 'from documentary sources alone.  I am particularly intrigued by the comment about northerners joining highland regiments. Would he have had to have gone out of his way to join a Scottish regiment?

In a possibly related fact his sister, Sarah, married a Scot, William Wilson (my great-grandfather and great-grandmother), in 1919. I've also been unable to identify William's regiment, not least because he has a horribly common name, but it was not a kilted regiment so I doubt that Sarah met William through Horace . I will create a separate post to see if anyone has any views on William Wilson's regiment. 

Thank you again. I will concentrate my searches on the Gordon Highlanders. Perhaps I will have some luck if I can get access to Harrogate newspapers of the time. 

Although all the comments are legitimate there isn’t really anything impossible or starkly jarring in his appearance given the circumstances of the war, attitudes to recruiting, and effects of employing former civilians in such large numbers over a short period.  Jackets were intended to have a loose fit so that linings could be retrofitted in cold climates, but also so that layering was easily facilitated.  There were three issued garments intended for wear beneath, an undershirt, a collarless overshirt and a knitted woollen cardigan.  With that in mind the jacket is perhaps a little large, but certainly not excessively so.
There was no taboo about English (nor indeed Irish or Welsh) joining Scottish regiments if it brought them up to strength.  The Army was (and still is) hugely pragmatic in that regard.  As the war evolved and lengthened it became increasingly difficult to obtain recruits from associated recruiting areas and battalions would pick up new men both, from areas they passed through before going to France and, increasingly, from recovered wounded who had previously been with other units.  The highly populated Northern cities were an especially common source and had been since long before the war.  His apparent unfamiliarity with the protocols of wearing his highland dress can be put down to both, his social origins, and the dilution of high standards of dress brought on by mass mobilisation into war-raised (i.e.non regular) units not necessarily steeped in regimental minutiae.

In the absence of any further information I think that you are right to focus on the Gordon Highlanders.

Edited 17 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

Just doing a generic search for anybody with the surname Dunn linked to the Gordon Highlanders produces a lone blank medal index card for an H Dunn, service number S/19629, serving with the Gordon Highlanders. This service number, S/19629, links to a William Dunn, who according to the medal rolls served with the 1st, 7th, and 6/7th Battalions of the Gordon Highlanders. There is a pension claim on Fold3 for this soldier, which might give you a clue as to where he lived and to eliminate him from your inquiries. I'm inclined to think that if Horace Dunn did serve overseas, given the absence of any obvious entries on the Gordon Highlander medal rolls for him, it was with a regiment other than the Gordon Highlanders. The other possibility is that he never actually served overseas, which in the absence of a surviving service record is going to be virtually impossible to prove one way or the other. Certainly I have a 2x great-uncle, who was a pre-war territorial soldier who was embodied on the outbreak of war as a 21-year old, yet who never served outside of Scotland/Ireland for the entire duration of the war, and was back at work as a miner by the beginning of December 1918 when his son was born. 

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Just doing a generic search for anybody with the surname Dunn linked to the Gordon Highlanders produces a lone blank medal index card for an H Dunn, service number S/19629, serving with the Gordon Highlanders. This service number, S/19629, links to a William Dunn, who according to the medal rolls served with the 1st, 7th, and 6/7th Battalions of the Gordon Highlanders. There is a pension claim on Fold3 for this soldier, which might give you a clue as to where he lived and to eliminate him from your inquiries. I'm inclined to think that if Horace Dunn did serve overseas, given the absence of any obvious entries on the Gordon Highlander medal rolls for him, it was with a regiment other than the Gordon Highlanders. The other possibility is that he never actually served overseas, which in the absence of a surviving service record is going to be virtually impossible to prove one way or the other. Certainly I have a 2x great-uncle, who was a pre-war territorial soldier who was embodied on the outbreak of war as a 21-year old, yet who never served outside of Scotland/Ireland for the entire duration of the war, and was back at work as a miner by the beginning of December 1918 when his son was born. 

The card holds no address, unfortunately.

It does however has have a 1/M pension number which corresponds with the Scottish region.

Craig

[Tawhiri]

So just to muddy the waters even further I have just found a surviving set of discharge documents on Ancestry for a Horace Dunn, born in 1894 in Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire, with a Harrogate address given for his final pay on discharge. He enlisted on 18 June 1917, it looks like initially with the West Yorkshire regiment with service number 49158, before being transferred to the Army Pay Corps with service number 13728. He was promoted to Corporal on 19 June 1918, and transferred to the Army Reserve on 4 May 1919. His address on discharge looks to be 40 Myrtle Square, Harrogate, and his occupation is solicitors clerk. I think I'd be prepared to say that this is our man, so if the photograph is of him, what is he doing dressed in a kilt? The rank stripes shown on the jacket he is wearing are correct for his rank post 19 June 1918, which would help to date the photograph as being taken sometime between June 1918 and May 1919 when he was discharged. No sign of any appearances in the medal rolls, so no overseas service either.

Edited to add that this is definitely our man, his address on discharge matches the address the family are living at in the 1911 England census, which is 40 Myrtle Square, Harrogate.

Edited 17 October , 2021 by Tawhiri

[jay dubaya]

26 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The card holds no address, unfortunately.

It does however has have a 1/M pension number which corresponds with the Scottish region.

Craig

S/19629 is actually a William Dunn, the H on the other MIC may appear to be somewhat erroneous. Medal Roll gives Gordon’s 1st Bn, 7th Bn and 7/8th Bn.

[gordon92]

There is one other possibility regarding regimental affiliation.... the 9th Bn Royal Scots.  The Hunting Stewart tartan would have the yellow and red overstripes masked by the photography, and a diced glengarry would also be worn.  Photos show 9th RS and its predecessor VB sometimes wearing a kilt pin, and it is the small kilt pin shown in the OP.

[Tawhiri]

Except that it's now clear that the only regiment he served with was the Army Pay Corps. I'm pretty sure the jacket is genuine given his promotion to Corporal in June 1918, but where the rest of his dress came from is anybody's guess. Borrowed from a colleague?

[FROGSMILE]

Well I never.  That’s quite a conundrum.  Royal Scots certainly a possibility, but as with the Gordon’s the missing cap rosette (not to mention insignia) is troubling, especially when hose tabs are absent too.  It’s possible, I suppose, that he was Army Pay Corps at a Scottish Command Pay Office and that he either, borrowed the dress, or it was ordered for station staff to create some kind of common dress.  It’s all very speculative without more facts.

Edited 18 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ron Abbott]

There were a couple of men surnamed Dunn in the 9th Royal Scots but not with the forename 'Horace'. Furthermore the Hunting Stewart tartan is usually relatively easy to identify due to it's asymmetrical sett and I'm not seeing that in the photo.  

With regard to previous comments........the rosette on the glengarry is troubling and it can't be said to be the angle of the photo because there are simply too many 'squares' on the dicing showing for it / the badge to be 'further back'.

The kilt pin is usually worn significantly higher on the kilt for the Gordons (as previously mentioned) however it is worn the correct way around (clasp to the bottom). 

The glengarry is tilted in the opposite manner to what was normal.

The hose flashes are missing and these would be worn by both Gordons and 9th Royal Scots.   

On the issue of the hose, there does appear to be a weird pattern on the foldover at the top.  Is that red and white dicing which looks smaller than it actually is due to the condition of the photo perhaps?  Note that I have seen a couple of photos in the past and from the WW1 era which showed Gordon Highlanders wearing hose that resembled old school or sports hose.  I don't have any photos to prove it as I never saved them but I distinctly recall that they were plain hose except for the foldover part at the top which had two horizontal stripes!  One photo was presumably early WW1 as the man was wearing spats but in another he was wearing puttees in the short ankle style, so presumably later WW1. 

Something similar to this -

I haven't seen any other photos since. 

Lastly I notice that he does not appear to have any unit badges on his shoulder epaulettes.   

 

 

[ElishebaSmith]

50 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Well I never.  That’s quite a conundrum.  Royal Scots certainly a possibility, but as with the Gordon’s the missing cap rosette (not to mention insignia) is troubling, especially when hose tabs are absent too.  It’s possible, I suppose, that he was Army Pay Corps at a Scottish Command Pay Office and that he either, borrowed the dress, or it was ordered for station staff to create some kind of common dress.  It’s all very speculative without more facts.

 

8 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

So just to muddy the waters even further I have just found a surviving set of discharge documents on Ancestry for a Horace Dunn, born in 1894 in Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire, with a Harrogate address given for his final pay on discharge. He enlisted on 18 June 1917, it looks like initially with the West Yorkshire regiment with service number 49158, before being transferred to the Army Pay Corps with service number 13728. He was promoted to Corporal on 19 June 1918, and transferred to the Army Reserve on 4 May 1919. His address on discharge looks to be 40 Myrtle Square, Harrogate, and his occupation is solicitors clerk. I think I'd be prepared to say that this is our man, so if the photograph is of him, what is he doing dressed in a kilt? The rank stripes shown on the jacket he is wearing are correct for his rank post 19 June 1918, which would help to date the photograph as being taken sometime between June 1918 and May 1919 when he was discharged. No sign of any appearances in the medal rolls, so no overseas service either.

Edited to add that this is definitely our man, his address on discharge matches the address the family are living at in the 1911 England census, which is 40 Myrtle Square, Harrogate.

Yes, I've looked at the record and that is definitely him, although I don't know what dark arts you employed to find him, Tawhiri! I feel like I need to do a master class in ancestry searching.  

Thank you so, so much - that's one mystery solved!