John Quaintrell/Quantrell - 228223 Royal Fusiliers (London Regiment) ex 23119 Rifle Brigade

[AnnieTaylor]

1 minute ago, Fattyowls said:

Don't worry about it, just mix yourself another G&T; it will be fun for me to try and work out what the asterisks mean. I seem to remember that the forum software has a list of words it doesn't allow and replaces them automatically, I could be wrong (I often am). That said if you mention Chri$tma$ on here before the 20th December all he!! breaks loose...........

Just to give you more of a sense of what it looked like in 1917-18 these are from the Imperial War Museum's collection of aerial photographs. I think both are summer 1917, in the second one you can see a shell bursting in the wood.....

Pete.

Haha, I just about mention it in December 

That’s incredible Pete! Thank you so much!! 
 

Annie x

[Fattyowls]

27 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

I just about mention it in December 

You're going to fit right in Annie. Big kudos goes to Charlie for establishing where we need photos of to illustrate John's story and to Mr F whose expertise never fails to amaze. I've been reading their stuff and the other authorities on here for years and I still ask myself how they do it.

Pete.

[clk]

Hi,

With all the meanderings of the thread, can anyone pull it together and write up 'headline' chronological bullet points for me on John please? I guess that Annie might find that interesting/helpful too.

TIA

Regards
Chris

Edited 15 October , 2021 by clk

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, clk said:

Hi,

With all the meanderings of the thread, can anyone pull it together and write up 'headline' chronological bullet points for me on John please? I guess that Annie might find that interesting/helpful too.

TIA

Regards
Chris

Based on the information gleaned my suggestion would be as follows Chris:

1.  Around 1900 enlisted with a Militia battalion of the Royal Fusiliers as a boy entrant.  There were three Militia battalions in that regiment at the time.  There were a great many callow and underdeveloped youths in the entire Militia (of all regiments) and this was commented upon by the post Boer War inquiry.  It had in some respects become a kind of benefits system for underemployed urban and rural youth.

2.  On completion of his Militia engagement (from memory I think around 4-years at that time) he appears likely to have entered the Militia Reserve and then, after 1908 reorganisation, the 7th (Extra Reserve) Battalion (essentially the same unit under a new title and wholly revised terms and conditions).

3.  In 1914 (assuming that’s the date of the attestation document posted by Annie) he re-attested declaring that he had been notified of his [presumably reservist] obligation and wished to join the Middlesex Regiment (this seems odd but might be because he was living within the bounds of Middlesex pre the creation of Greater London).  As he didn’t mobilise at that stage it seems likely that he was registered but sent home as a married man with a child to await call up. 

4.  In 1916 presumably called up and sent to a Rifle Brigade Reserve battalion, where he was seemingly issued a regimental number but then probably found his unit converted to a [numbered] Training Reserve (TR) battalion under the wholesale reorganisation of the reserves system that year.

5.  After completion of training in spring 1917 sent in a draft intended for the 13th (Service) Battalion East Surrey Regiment, but probably diverted at the infantry base depot in France to the 26th (Service) Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers because of its urgent need for battle replacements.  He was probably wounded with that battalion as he did not go with it to Italy in November 1917 and seems likely to have been evacuated for treatment and recovery to Britain.

6.  Upon recovery from wounds returned to 1st Reserve Battalion London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) at Aldershot and thence to an Infantry base depot in France and posted to 1/4th Battalion London Regiment where he arrived in February 1918.  In March 1918 he was swept up by the initial onslaught of the German Spring offensive and fatally wounded by artillery bombardment.  Taken as a wounded prisoner of war to a German reserve field hospital where he subsequently expired.

The above is partly conjecture but based upon the jigsaw puzzle of details provided by Annie, RussT, Matlock1418, charlie962, FattyOwls and yourself.

Edited 16 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[AnnieTaylor]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Based on the information gleaned my suggestion would be as follows Chris:

1.  Around 1900 enlisted with a Militia battalion of the Royal Fusiliers as a boy entrant.  There were three Militia battalions in that regiment at the time.  There were a great many callow youths in the entire Militia (of all regiments) and this was often commented upon.  It had in some respects become a kind of benefits system for underemployed urban and rural youth.

2.  On completion of his Militia engagement (from memory I think around 4-years at that time) he appears likely to have entered the Militia Reserve and then after 1908 the 7th (Extra Reserve) Battalion (essentially the same unit under a new title and terms and conditions).

3.  In 1914 (assuming that’s the date of the attestation document posted by Annie) he re-attested declaring that he had been notified of his [presumably reserve] obligation and wished to join the Middlesex Regiment (this seems odd but might be because he was living within the bounds of Middlesex pre the creation of Greater London.  As he didn’t mobilise at that stage it seems likely that he was sent home as a married man with a child to await call up. 

4.  In 1916 presumably called up and sent to a Rifle Brigade Reserve battalion, where he was seemingly issued a regimental number but then probably found his unit converted to a [numbered] Training Reserve (TR) battalion under the wholesale reorganisation of the reserves system that year.

5.  After completion of training in spring 1917 sent in a draft intended for the 13th (Service) Battalion East Surrey Regiment, but probably diverted at the infantry base depot in France to the 26th (Service) Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers because of its urgent need of battle replacements.  He was probably wounded with that battalion as he did not go with it to Italy in November 1917 and seems likely to have been evacuated for treatment and recovery to Britain.

6.  Upon recovery from wounds returned to 1st Reserve Battalion London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) and thence to an Infantry base depot in France and posted to 1/4th Battalion where he arrived in February 1918.  In March 1918 he was swept up by the initial German onslaught of their Spring offensive and fatally wounded by artillery bombardment.

The above is partly conjecture but based upon the jigsaw puzzle of details provided by Annie, RussT, Matlock1418, charlie962, FattyOwls and yourself.

That’s amazing seeing it written out like that. Thanks so much to everyone who have helped me! 
Now to tackle other family members during WW2! 
 

Annie  x 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, AnnieTaylor said:

That’s amazing seeing it written out like that. Thanks so much to everyone who have helped me! 
Now to tackle other family members during WW2! 
 

Annie  x 

It’s such a tragic story Annie, given that both, father and then only son were killed in the two great wars of the 20th Century.  It must have brought great sorrow and hardship on the womenfolk too.  Good luck with your WW2 research.

Edited 16 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[AnnieTaylor]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s such a tragic story Annie, given that both, father and then only son were killed in the two great wars of the 20th Century.  It must have brought great sorrow and hardship on the womenfolk too.  Good luck with your WW2 research.

Yes, it’s very sad. John had two sons, John and Sydney. 
After John died, his wife (Grace) remarried but had no more children.
John died in 1945, WW2, a year later Grace died and Sydney lived until 1994. 
 

Thank you. I joint a WW2 forum that RussT suggested. So far it’s not as informative as this one. Maybe I’ll try and do some research alone to get more information and then resubmit a thread. 
 

Thanks so much for your help Frogsmile. I’m sure I’ll be back with another family member soon! 

Annie  x 

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Yes, it’s very sad. John had two sons, John and Sydney. 
After John died, his wife (Grace) remarried but had no more children.
John died in 1945, WW2, a year later Grace died and Sydney lived until 1994. 
 

Thank you. I joint a WW2 forum that RussT suggested. So far it’s not as informative as this one. Maybe I’ll try and do some research alone to get more information and then resubmit a thread. 
 

Thanks so much for your help Frogsmile. I’m sure I’ll be back with another family member soon! 

Annie  x 

Poor Grace lost both her John’s then and I wonder what Sydney could remember of his early life.

I’m not sure if WW2talk is as developed a forum as this one, which has matured with a great deal of corporate knowledge since it was established in 2003, although it seems less popular now with a lot of folk joining equivalent Facebook groups instead.

I was glad to help a little but it was very much a team effort with key input by those with genealogical knowledge and sources of information.  I just add some of the more military aspects where I can.

Do indeed come back with any WW1 queries that you have, I’m sure that you’ll always receive a warm welcome. 

Edited 16 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RobertBr]

16 hours ago, charlie962 said:

do we know were the three posts were? I

Part of my marked up IGN map from 2008 showing the posts.

Bob

 

[charlie962]

1 minute ago, RobertBr said:

Part of my marked up IGN map from 2008 showing the posts.

thank you.

[AnnieTaylor]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Poor Grace lost both her John’s then and I wonder what Sydney could remember of his early life.

I’m not sure if WW2talk is as developed a forum as this one, which has matured with a great deal of corporate knowledge since it was established in 2003, although it seems less popular now with a lot of folk joining equivalent Facebook groups instead.

I was glad to help a little but it was very much a team effort with key input by those with genealogical knowledge and sources of information.  I just add some of the more military aspects where I can.

Do indeed come back with any WW1 queries that you have, I’m sure that you’ll always receive a warm welcome. 

Yes, great work from everyone! I'm still overwhelmed with the information you guys have given me!  

Annie x

[AnnieTaylor]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Poor Grace lost both her John’s then and I wonder what Sydney could remember of his early life.

I’m not sure if WW2talk is as developed a forum as this one, which has matured with a great deal of corporate knowledge since it was established in 2003, although it seems less popular now with a lot of folk joining equivalent Facebook groups instead.

I was glad to help a little but it was very much a team effort with key input by those with genealogical knowledge and sources of information.  I just add some of the more military aspects where I can.

Do indeed come back with any WW1 queries that you have, I’m sure that you’ll always receive a warm welcome. 

Hi Frogsmile. 
Is the militia he was part of, different to the rifle volunteers? 
 

Annie  x 

[FROGSMILE]

On 16/10/2021 at 15:00, AnnieTaylor said:

Hi Frogsmile. 
Is the militia he was part of, different to the rifle volunteers? 
 

Annie  x 

Yes Annie.  In 1908, with the big reorganisation of the auxiliary forces, the Militia became the Special Reserve and the Rifle Volunteers (along with the Yeomanry (auxiliary cavalry)) became the Territorial Force.  Each had its own distinct function.

NB.  Officially the former organisations stood down on one day and then the entirely new organisations with legally different terms and conditions were formed the next day.  Each man was offered the opportunity to either, be discharged, or re-enlist with the new organisation, and for practical reasons equipment and bases were handed over to the ‘new’ units.  They were really the same units, but just dressed, purely metaphorically, in ‘different clothes’, and so many of the men were the same.

Edited 11 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[AnnieTaylor]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes Annie.  In 1908 with the big reorganisation of the auxiliary forces the Militia became the Special Reserve and Extra Reserve and the Rifle Volunteers became the Territorial Force.  Each had its own distinct function.

Thank you  xx 

[clk]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Based on the information gleaned my suggestion would be as follows Chris:

Thank you Frogsmile. Much appreciated.

Regards
Chris

 

[FROGSMILE]

42 minutes ago, clk said:

Thank you Frogsmile. Much appreciated.

Regards
Chris

 

I’m glad to help a little Chris, it’s been an interesting one and evocative of the social circumstances of those times.  Ordinary people doing their level best to make a way in life at a time when there were none of the safety nets of today.  I think it shows how the war office took advantage of that.

Edited 16 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

I would like to add a few notes re his last days:

 

We know from the ICRC card that Quantrell was in B Company.

The regimental history by FC Grimwade tells us:

B Company (Spicer) HQ and 2 platoons in BEATTY POST (one of the forward posts), 1 platoon in Marquis-Earl Line...

At 3am the Germans opened up an intense high explosive/mustard gas bombardment on the support and rear lines then at 5.40am a terrific trench mortar fire fell on the forward posts doing very severe damage and causing many casualties...

BEATTY POST had suffered from the trench mortar fire more severely than any, and by the time the Germans appeared its trenches were practically effaced. The attackers appeared in fairly close formation, some of the leading wave firing rifle grenades from the hip. Apparently the enemy's trench mortar preparation, severe as it had been, had not dealt effectively with our wire, for the leading wave of attackers was delayed in getting through it, causing those following to bunch up to it. The rapid rifle and Lewis gun fire opened up by the garrison of the post was thus able to inflict very severe loss. For about 15 minutes the garrison very stoutly held its own, but at the end of that time it was found that the enemy had already swept over the posts to the right held by another battalion and was working into the support trenches in great numbers. Sheer weight of numbers made further resistance impossible, and 2Lt Pitman brought the six surviving men back to the Marquis Line over the open, leaving two officers (Capt EE Spicer and 2Lt Coombes) and 78 other ranks (presumably including Quantrell) fallen at their posts.

Quantrell's wounding (from which he died 4 days later, as a PoW) was most probably from this initial intense trench mortar bombardment.

Here is the map from Grimwade's History:

I think the aerial photo posted by fattyowls above should be borne in mind when envisaging the conditions around Beatty post at that date.

[ss002d6252]

On 15/10/2021 at 12:16, charlie962 said:

Quote

The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his Soldiers Effects record can be used to back calculate when he probably joined up as the amount was generally made on the basis of rank and eligible war service (both 'home', and 'overseas' in theatre) prior to death. In your case the £10/- gives a back calculated date of approximately circa July 1916. I've not looked at Rifle Brigade number sequencing before, perhaps one of the real forum experts can pitch in, but from what I saw, if the the numbers were issued generally across the Battalions, 23100 O'Neill 'enlisted' 11.5.1916, and 23138 Fisher was posted to the 'Depot' from the Army Reserve on 19.6.1916. Given the short distance between the numbers of 23100 O'Neill and 23138 Fisher, and their apparent issue date, my guess would be that RB numbering isn't that straight forward.

The Widows Pension form on FindmyPast here repeats much of what Matlock picked up in that Pension Card he posted earlier on. But it has an extra piece of info. He 'joined for duty 19/6/16' (PS that form also says he was evenually 1st london regt !!)

Charlie

To add to what Chris said, we can say the wart gratuity tells us that.

https://wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/

Craig

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

To add to what Chris said, we can say the wart gratuity tells us that.

https://wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/

On the button once again, Craig. Well done.

As I posted much earlier:

The Widows Pension form on FindmyPast here repeats much of what Matlock picked up in that Pension Card he posted earlier on. But it has an extra piece of info. He 'joined for duty 19/6/16' (PS that form also says he was evenually 1st london regt !!)

Charlie

[Fattyowls]

Excellent work gentlemen.

Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

I would like to add a few notes re his last days:

 

We know from the ICRC card that Quantrell was in B Company.

The regimental history by FC Grimwade tells us:

B Company (Spicer) HQ and 2 platoons in BEATTY POST (one of the forward posts), 1 platoon in Marquis-Earl Line...

At 3am the Germans opened up an intense high explosive/mustard gas bombardment on the support and rear lines then at 5.40am a terrific trench mortar fire fell on the forward posts doing very severe damage and causing many casualties...

BEATTY POST had suffered from the trench mortar fire more severely than any, and by the time the Germans appeared its trenches were practically effaced. The attackers appeared in fairly close formation, some of the leading wave firing rifle grenades from the hip. Apparently the enemy's trench mortar preparation, severe as it had been, had not dealt effectively with our wire, for the leading wave of attackers was delayed in getting through it, causing those following to bunch up to it. The rapid rifle and Lewis gun fire opened up by the garrison of the post was thus able to inflict very severe loss. For about 15 minutes the garrison very stoutly held its own, but at the end of that time it was found that the enemy had already swept over the posts to the right held by another battalion and was working into the support trenches in great numbers. Sheer weight of numbers made further resistance impossible, and 2Lt Pitman brought the six surviving men back to the Marquis Line over the open, leaving two officers (Capt EE Spicer and 2Lt Coombes) and 78 other ranks (presumably including Quantrell) fallen at their posts.

Quantrell's wounding (from which he died 4 days later, as a PoW) was most probably from this initial intense trench mortar bombardment.

Here is the map from Grimwade's History:

I think the aerial photo posted by fattyowls above should be borne in mind when envisaging the conditions around Beatty post at that date.

That’s very interesting Charlie962, thank you for posting it.  It’s quite an evocative description for me as I spent the period between 1975 and 1990 as a specialist in the medium mortar in British service based directly on the trench mortars of equivalent calibre developed during WW1 (the Stokes).  The trench mortar and it’s evolutionary successors (little different even now) were indeed especially lethal when used against entrenched infantry.  Unlike conventional field artillery that descends with a more shallow trajectory and throws fragmentation largely forward along its line of fire, mortar bombs descend and impact close to vertically, penetrating easily into open trenches and dispersing smaller, jagged fragmentation through 360 degrees.  This is especially lethal in trench fighting.  The effectiveness continued in the world war that followed and over 70% of the British infantry battalions casualties following D-Day were inflicted by German 8cm mortars according to British statistical analysis. 

Edited 17 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 It’s quite an evocative description for me

noted!

Charlie

[AnnieTaylor]

Thank you everyone! Such amazing research by all! Can't thank you all enough.

 

Annie  x