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Remembered Today:

John Quaintrell/Quantrell - 228223 Royal Fusiliers (London Regiment) ex 23119 Rifle Brigade


AnnieTaylor

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9 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Can the sites that you guys have used, (besides Ancestry) also be used to find people who served in WW2? Or are they exclusive to WW1? 
 

Annie :) x

Yes, the genealogy sites can be used in exactly the same way.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Whilst we can't go too much into WW2 here [GWF rules] - most post-WW1 service records are still kept with the MoD [there are some restrictions on what can be accessed]

You can sometimes apply to the MoD - search fee(s) and a long wait(s) I fear.

Check this site out: https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

:-)M

Thanks Mat x

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4 hours ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Thank you! :) I’m getting slightly confused myself as I don’t really understand anything about battalions etc :wacko:
 

Annie x 

Annie I think we can revisit that attestation document you posted earlier in the thread that mentions the 7th Royal Fusiliers, as although I’d thought it was probably a red herring back then, your new information about him being a boy soldier in 1901 changes thing’s completely.  There are a few reasons why.  First if he was a regular boy soldier he would not have been living at home in 1901, but in barracks.  Second it’s less likely that he’d have accepted the use of the term ‘Private’ by the census clerk because as a professional (i.e. regular) he would have known his official rank as an under 18-year old was ‘Boy’ (a long standing protocol).  

I believe that in fact he had joined a Militia battalion of the Royal Fusiliers.  As an institution the Militia, an auxiliary force of part-time citizen soldiers, was older than the regular army, especially that in London, which went back to King Henry the VIII.  In 1881 the regular army and the militia had both undergone a major reorganisation and been forced to join each other (to merge professionals and part timers) in a single overarching organisation.  The first few battalions numerically remained as the regulars and the militia units (which often had previously enjoyed entirely different titles, honours, and royal associations) were all linked with the regulars as more junior, numbered battalions (to their huge annoyance) of a newly titled regiment - in this case the Royal Fusiliers.  It was the militia connection that then gave the newly titled regiment a secondary name, ‘The City of London Regiment’ (this was to make the former militia battalions feel that their entirely London focused history and identity had been respected). 

In the case of the Royal Fusiliers at that time (1901) the 1st to 4th Battalions were regular and the 5th, 6th and 7th were all Militia. Finally, in 1908, there was another big reorganisation and the Militia were ostensibly stood down (in reality converted) and became instead divided between two new categories of Battalion, Special Reserve and Extra Reserve (as explained earlier in the thread).  I think that the young John Quantrell completed his engagement as a Boy Entrant in the Militia and then after the reorganisation of 1908 became a reservist in the new (i.e. replacement unit) 7th (Extra Reserve) Battalion of his original regiment, the Royal Fusiliers.  

It looks to me as if he then re-attested (your document) at the beginning of the war, because his reserve obligation had expired, but having done so was then sent home to await call up because he was a married man with a child.  What seems to have happened subsequently you already know, as it’s been teased out via the various contributions earlier in this thread (i.e. the units that he joined subsequently during the war). 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Annie I think we can revisit that attestation document you posted earlier in the thread that mentions the 7th Royal Fusiliers, as although I’d thought it was probably a red herring then your new information about him being a boy soldier in 1901 changes thing’s completely.  There are a few reasons why.  First if he was a regular soldier he would not have been living at home in 1901, but in barracks.  Second it’s less likely that he’d have accepted the use of the term ‘Private’ because as a professional he would have known his official rank was ‘Boy’ (a long standing protocol).

So it’s all wrong? 😐

Annie x 

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20 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Most of the losses were in the three forward Posts that were overrun by the Germans. Quantrell was probably in one of these:

Oppy Post  of 48 ORs, only 5 returned
Wood Post    45 ORS, only 15 returned
Beatty Post    84 ORs, only 6 returned

Just out of interest do we know were the three posts were? I'm assuming in the vicinity of Oppy village, but I tried plugging the names into Tmapper but drew a blank. This is no reflection on the software, more likely the operator. I wondered just in case we've got a photo of the area as it is now.

Pete.

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15 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

So it’s all wrong? 😐

Annie x 

No it’s not all wrong, I was still editing.  See above in full.  I hope that with careful reading it’s relatively self-explanatory.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

No it’s not all wrong, I was still editing.  See above in full.  I hope that with careful reading it’s relatively self-explanatory.

Yes, thank you Frogsmile.  Incredible stuff, thank you again!! 
 

Annie :) xx 

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4 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Yes, thank you Frogsmile.  Incredible stuff, thank you again!! 
 

Annie :) xx 

If there’s anything you don’t understand just ask.  The change is not great, we’ve just teased out that he had almost certainly been a Militia Reservist and then (after the 1908 reorganisation) an Extra Reservist.  This helps to explain how he rejoined.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

If there’s anything you don’t understand just ask.  The change is not great, we’ve just teased out that he had almost certainly been a Militia Reservist and then (after the 1908 reorganisation) an Extra Reservist.  This helps to explain how he rejoined.

I think I’ve got my head round it now! I may be back with my questions 🙈

Thanks again :) x 

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33 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

do we know were the three posts were

1/4th Londons War Diary says all March operational orders etc were destroyed when the attack started. The same posts were in use in Feb 1918 but I couldn't see any grid refs. There's a map in the Feb 1918 Appendix but all folded up! Orders normally showed which company sent which platoons to which post- which would have helped us with B Coy.

This extract of the map in March 1918 appendix does not mark the posts but they were there somewhere:

123584411_GWFOppyMarch1918.JPG.55c5441c8454f282e7cef1523337d074.JPGcourtesy NationalArchives WO-95-2954-1

EDIT-

I suspect Oppy Post was just above the wood, Wood Post was in the wood at the west side of Oppy Village and Beatty Post was near the head of Beatty Alley- but I could be wrong.  Note this map was a Nov 1917 update.

Edited by charlie962
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6 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

I think I’ve got my head round it now! I may be back with my questions 🙈

Thanks again :) x 

I understand that it’s a lot to take in.  Have a large gin and tonic and revisit it later with a suitably rested set of eyes and refreshed mind! 😉

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Just now, FROGSMILE said:

I understand that it’s a lot to take in.  Have a large gin and tonic and revisit it later with a suitably rested set of eyes and refreshed mind!

Ha ha, have nice weekend! :D

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5 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Ha ha, have nice weekend! :D

You too!  I’m rewording the militia explanation as best I can to make the 1908 reorganisation easier to understand.  Basically he was I think Militia in 1901, but Extra Reserve by 1911.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Just now, FROGSMILE said:

You too!  I’m rewording the militia explanation as best I can to make the reorganisation easier to understand.  Basically he was I think Militia in 1901, but Extra Reserve by 1911.

Thank you :) x

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13 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I suspect Oppy Post was just above the wood, Wood Post was in the wood at the west side of Oppy Village and Beatty Post was near the head of Beatty Alley- but I could be wrong.  Note this map was a Nov 1917 update.

I think that makes huge sense. This is Oppy Wood in the centre, the edge of the village to the right with the Vimy ridge on horizon to the left. Beatty Alley would be in the scrubby field. the viewpoint is roughly the site of Canteen Post on the map. So chances are this is the area where John was captured if I've read the foregoing correctly.

Pete.

1733904389_OppyWoodpanoramic.jpg.cba905f6d932927c7ee705cfcdd70d3d.jpg

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Just now, Fattyowls said:

I think that makes huge sense. This is Oppy Wood in the centre, the edge of the village to the right with the Vimy ridge on horizon to the left. Beatty Alley would be in the scrubby field. the viewpoint is roughly the site of Canteen Post on the map. So chances are this is the area where John was captured if I've read the foregoing correctly.

Pete.

1733904389_OppyWoodpanoramic.jpg.cba905f6d932927c7ee705cfcdd70d3d.jpg

AmazIng. Thank you Pete. 
 

Annie :) x 

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21 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Thank you :) x

It means he probably retained an auxiliary connection with the army continuously from the point that he enlisted as a boy until his death.  Joining the militia and then special/extra reserve was quite popular among the lower income urban and rural communities because they received a cash payment (called a ‘bounty’) each summer.  All they had to do is attend a 2 to 3 week summer training camp each year (once they’d been trained) and the cash payment was made.  For families where a regular working wage wasn’t guaranteed throughout the year (some relied on harvests and others on a gig economy, e.g. stevedores) it was often what got them through the winter.  It was an early form of benefits system, but only paid to those who joined.  I hope this helps to put things in perspective.  You can perhaps imagine how Grace might have supported John’s attendance.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

It means he probably retained an auxiliary connection with the army continuously from the point that he enlisted as a boy until his death.  Joining the militia and then special/extra reserve was quite popular among the lower income urban and rural communities because they received a cash payment (called a ‘bounty’) each summer.  All they had to do is attend a 2 to 3 week summer training camp each year (once they’d been trained) and the cash payment was made.  For families where a regular working wage wasn’t guaranteed throughout the year (some relied on harvests and others on a gig economy, e.g. stevedores) it was often what got them through the winter.  It was an early form of benefits system, but only paid to those who joined.  I hope this helps to put things in perspective. 

Thank you. So would his parents of been paid too? Could that could of been why his parents would of consented to him joining at a young age x 

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1 hour ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Thank you. So would his parents of been paid too? Could that could of been why his parents would of consented to him joining at a young age x 

It’s not impossible that his father might also have been in the militia as a younger man, but if he was it would be recorded.  It might also just be that he (young John) liked the idea of being a soldier and the family realised it would bring in some extra income.  

An important feature of the militia is that it was used as a back door method to recruit into the regular army.  Young militia recruits did up to 6-months initial basic training at the same depot as the regulars and the sergeants were always looking for likely lads that they could persuade to transfer across (they received a cash bonus for each recruit that they successfully persuaded).  If the militia recruit did not transfer to the regulars then after the 6-months he returned home to civilian life with only the annual summer camp as an obligation.  

Nevertheless, in the absence of any other employment the militiaman was entitled to call himself a soldier and that’s what he (John) did in the census return of 1901, right in the middle of the 2nd Anglo/Boer war, when public support was high and soldiers were popular.  It became renowned in history as a period of “jingoism” (a public standpoint subsequently smashed asunder following the catastrophic losses of WW1).

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

look at post4 in this old thread which marks the Posts and discusses the day.

As I suspected you were right on the money as they say; the post is superb and has lots of detail from the war diaries about the fighting. Top find.

9 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

AmazIng. Thank you Pete. 

My pleasure Annie; I am just glad that my dodgy snaps from the front come in useful. I have an interest in the area from 1917 myself and it is fascinating to find out how the same area was fought over again. Many of us learn lots from a post like this, Mr F's refresher on the size and makeup of a battalion is a useful reminder.

Pete.

P.S. Hope the G&T is hitting the spot.........

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3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

There is the painting of Oppy Wood 1917 by Nash. I suspect the 'wood' had little grown over the winter of 1917/18.

Charlie

Great minds think alike; One of my favourite Nash WW1 works; I was just looking for the copy I have (honest).

Pete.

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12 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

As I suspected you were right on the money as they say; the post is superb and has lots of detail from the war diaries about the fighting. Top find.

My pleasure Annie; I am just glad that my dodgy snaps from the front come in useful. I have an interest in the area from 1917 myself and it is fascinating to find out how the same area was fought over again. Many of us learn lots from a post like this, Mr F's refresher on the size and makeup of a battalion is a useful reminder.

Pete.

P.S. Hope the G&T is hitting the spot.........

It’s doing it’s job ***! Thanks again Pete :) x

13 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

As I suspected you were right on the money as they say; the post is superb and has lots of detail from the war diaries about the fighting. Top find.

My pleasure Annie; I am just glad that my dodgy snaps from the front come in useful. I have an interest in the area from 1917 myself and it is fascinating to find out how the same area was fought over again. Many of us learn lots from a post like this, Mr F's refresher on the size and makeup of a battalion is a useful reminder.

Pete.

P.S. Hope the G&T is hitting the spot.........

 

1 minute ago, AnnieTaylor said:

It’s doing it’s job ***! Thanks again Pete :) x

I’m not sure why they stared out that :wacko:

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9 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

I’m not sure why they stared out that :wacko:

Don't worry about it, just mix yourself another G&T; it will be fun for me to try and work out what the asterisks mean. I seem to remember that the forum software has a list of words it doesn't allow and replaces them automatically, I could be wrong (I often am). That said if you mention Chri$tma$ on here before the 20th December all he!! breaks loose...........

Just to give you more of a sense of what it looked like in 1917-18 these are from the Imperial War Museum's collection of aerial photographs. I think both are summer 1917, in the second one you can see a shell bursting in the wood.....

Pete.

1500977698_OppyWoodaerial(IWMQ5560).jpg.9c38693a74fd359193d067b5cbe1062f.jpg

841279834_OppyWoodaerial(IWMQ28787).jpg.377b602bf1d01d697826e8624b85be65.jpg

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