John Quaintrell/Quantrell - 228223 Royal Fusiliers (London Regiment) ex 23119 Rifle Brigade

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Thank you! I appreciate your help  x 

It’s entirely feasible that he served in several different regiment’s during his service and up until he was killed, including those mentioned by RussT above.  A key thing is to make sure it’s all referring to the same man (it was a huge army) and then after that carefully trace the chronology and sequence of his movements.  Some men changed units before they left Britain, and then several times again after they arrived in France, especially if wounded, or sick during interim periods (i.e. it was common to be sent to a different unit upon recovery).

Edited 13 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[AnnieTaylor]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s entirely feasible that he served in several different regiment’s during his service and up until he was killed, including those mentioned by RussT above.  A key thing is to make sure it’s all referring to the same man (it was a huge army) and then after that carefully trace the chronology and sequence of his movements.  Some men changed units before they left Britain, and then several times again after they arrived in France, especially if wounded, or sick during interim periods (i.e. it was common to be sent to a different unit upon recovery).

Thanks Frogsmile. I’ll cross reference all of my findings to make sure they’re the same person. 
Thanks for your help  x 

[FROGSMILE]

On 14/10/2021 at 10:25, AnnieTaylor said:

Thanks Frogsmile. I’ll cross reference all of my findings to make sure they’re the same person. 
Thanks for your help  x 

Trying to help you make some sense of the information you’ve gathered so far:

1.  I think the attestation document that you posted, relating to a man (Quantrell?) who had prior to attestation already been an auxiliary with the 7th (Extra Reserve) Battalion Royal Fusiliers, is probably a red herring.  That man stated lower down on the same document that he wished to join the Middlesex Regiment, so it seems less likely to be your great uncle unless there is some other corroborative evidence.

2.  From the medal roll and it’s linked medal index card it seems as if the following chronology and sequence is perhaps likely:

a.  Initially served with a Rifle Brigade battalion (unknown which) in late 1916 or early 1917, but left it for another battalion, probably of the Training Reserve (TR) before departing Britain.  Only regiment’s served with overseas are listed on the medal records, so hence the absence of any mention.

b. Posted to 13th (Service) Battalion (Wandsworth) East Surrey Regiment, which had arrived in France on 4th June 1916.  He embarked subsequently in a draft of battle replacements on 26th April 1917. This was one of the war-raised hostilities only units I mentioned previously and they were unique in having their own special variation of the East Surrey Regiment’s standard cap badge bearing at its centre the Wandsworth town crest and motto (we serve).  I’m curious as to whether he might have been sick and evacuated to a base hospital (many men suffered from e.g. trench fever), as he rather swiftly left this unit, but there may have been other reasons, such as to undergo further physical hardening if he was considered physically underdeveloped, as many working class lads were. Alternatively he might have only been posted to the unit on paper and then quickly diverted elsewhere, such as the next unit below.

c. He next joined the 26th (Service) Battalion (Bankers) Royal Fusiliers, on 12th May 1917, which would probably have been via an Infantry Base Depot in France where reinforcement drafts were processed and then sent to the units most in need (those denuded by casualties).  This was another of the war-raised hostilities only units and unusual in that it had initially been formed from young men who had worked in banks in civilian life.  By 1917, after the Somme battles of the preceding year, that identity was increasingly diluted, as battle replacements came from wherever they could be found and were no longer all former bankers.  This change in units original characteristics was common as the effect of casualties became felt.  It seems likely that he might have been wounded, or perhaps sick again before November 1917, as in that month the 26th embarked for Italy and there is no mention of him joining the campaign there.

d.  He joined finally the 1/4th (City of London) Battalion London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) Territorial Force in February 1918.  This move also seems likely to have been via the usual route of an Infantry Base Depot that by that stage of the war worked ruthlessly and like a well oiled machine to get battle replacements to units in need of reinforcement.  Pragmatism was the watchword and vital. You will recall that I explained earlier that the Royal Fusiliers were one of the few unusual regiment’s whose Territorial Force units (part time auxiliaries during peace) were all contained in the separate London Regiment, where they formed the 1st to 4th units, each with two duplicates.  Your great uncle was with the 1/4th, but there were also 2/4th and 3/4th.  The poor fellow’s apparent date of death makes clear that he was one of the many unfortunates to be swept up in the absolute maelstrom of gas and high explosive artillery bombardments and infiltrating infantry assaults that heralded the commencement of the German’s long planned Spring Offensive in March 1918.  This was catastrophic for the British Army with many casualties plus around 27,000 captured as prisoners of war.

The above is not definitive, but based upon my conjecture following the details that you, RussT and Matlock1418 have provided.  If the details are accurate and definitely relate to your great uncle then below are the cap badges that he would have worn when not in a steel helmet.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread the 26th Royal Fusiliers and the 1/4th London Regiment would have worn the same cap badge but different shoulder titles.  Your great uncle might well have suffered during his service in France, as he served with three different units in less than a year before he was killed, so it would have been difficult to have developed any sense of belonging, and he must have felt as if he was perpetually being moved around from pillar to post.  We can only hope that his end, when it came, was a swift one.  I have always felt most sorry for those who died in the latter part of the war, as by then they had no illusions, and in many cases had been wounded several times previously and weeded out of, and then back into the Infantry after Medical grading requirements were lowered.  Many of them must have felt extremely unlucky.

Edited 15 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[AnnieTaylor]

Frogsmile, I can’t thank you enough!! Absolutely incredible! 
 

Annie x 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Frogsmile, I can’t thank you enough!! Absolutely incredible! 
 

Annie x 

I’m glad to have been able to help a little Annie, your great uncle’s path to war and his ending was, like so many’s, a very poignant one.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[AnnieTaylor]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to have been able to help a little Annie, your great uncle’s path to war and his ending was, like so many’s, a very poignant one.

I can’t stop reading it! Could listen to you all day! Yes, very much so 

Annie x 

[charlie962]

Annie, one more important bit of info about John Quantrell's death:

 

The International Red Cross (ICRC) have 2 index cards for him, showing that he died as a PoW on 1/4/18 having gone missing 28/3/18.

Here is the first card:(and here is link to ICRC site).

The second card just repeats a little of the first card.

 

That reference PA 28094 takes you to a list of men died, as notified by the Germans to the ICRC, showing he died in a German Reserve Field Hospital in Dechy. I think it also says 'as a result of gunshot(=shell splinter) wound to spine ? (infolge ruckenmarkschuss)

Charlie

Edited 14 October , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

You will also see that the enquiry to the ICRC was initiated by his wife, who first received a negative (ie nothing known) reply sent  30/7/1918 before getting a note of his actual death sent 4/11/18. A long wait but the certainty will have helped.

Charlie

[AnnieTaylor]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

You will also see that the enquiry to the ICRC was initiated by his wife, who first received a negative (ie nothing known) reply sent  30/7/1918 before getting a note of his actual death sent 4/11/18. A long wait but the certainty will have helped.

Charlie

Charlie that’s absolutely incredible!! Thank you so much!! 
 

annie x 

[FROGSMILE]

Even at the poor fellow’s end there’s still confusion about his unit.  On the ICRC document it mentions 1/4 City of London, but in the German Army’s notification of deaths in hospital list it states 1/4 Rifle Brigade, and clearly one of them has to be wrong (there was much confusion at the time when so many British prisoners were taken).  It ought to be possible to get to the bottom of this, and then the CWWGC needs to be notified so that the core details can be recorded once and for all.  Can @RussT advise how best to resolve this?

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

n the German Army’s notification of deaths in hospital list it states 1/4 Rifle Brigade

I suspect it wsa the Germans who were confused, perhaps extracting different bits from his paybook?

There wasn't a 1/4th Rifle Brigade.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I suspect it wsa the Germans who were confused, perhaps extracting different bits from his paybook?

There wasn't a 1/4th Rifle Brigade.

Indeed charlie.  I was wondering if the Germans might’ve been confused with the London Rifle Brigade, as I’m assuming that they took into hospital a lot of casualties from battalions of the 47th and 58th (London) Infantry Divisions (6 brigades, or 18 battalions), who both suffered heavy casualties and men taken prisoner during the first few days of the German assault.

Afternote:  thinking about it your suggestion that details were probably gleaned from his AB64 pay book is an excellent one and I think you’re probably correct.

Edited 15 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

The 1/4th London Regt (City of London) RF war diary that Matlock linked above has an interesting appendix to the March 1918 Diary, giving a detailed account of the action of 28th March 1918 where the Battalion's Other Ranks casualties were:

killed                            15
wounded                     43
wounded and missing  12
missing                     156
total                         226

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

The 1/4th London Regt (City of London) RF war diary that Matlock linked above has an interesting appendix to the March 1918 Diary, giving a detailed account of the action of 28th March 1918 where the Battalion's Other Ranks casualties were:

killed                            15
wounded                     43
wounded and missing  12
missing                     156
total                         226

And one of those number must be our subject, Quantrell.  Those are heavy casualties indeed for a single day, especially for a battalion fully entrenched in defence rather than in the open and assaulting.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Fattyowls]

Hi Annie,

I can't add anything to the top quality research by the gang but following on from Michelle's photos of Cabaret Rouge this is a photo of the cemetery and the area around it, which is full of WW1 history. The cemetery is to the right of the picture in the lower middle distance among the rightmost of the two groups of trees; you can see the tower at the entrance, and the cross of sacrifice to the right of the trees planted around the graves. The high ground along the centre left horizon is the Vimy ridge which defied French attempts to capture it in 1915 and was finally taken in April 1917 by Canadian and British troops as part of the opening of the battle of Arras. The Canadian memorial on the ridge is just visible as a white spot above the trees on the horizon. Dechy near Douai, where the original burial took place is somewhere over to the left of the ridge in the far distance.

Arras itself is just below the horizon beyond the cemetery and should you ever visit is an excellent base to explore the area. The viewpoint is the massive French cemetery at Notre Dame de Lorette, if you've ever travelled along the Autoroute des Anglais (A26) you've driven across the picture and were close to the cemetery where John now lies.

Hope you find what you want (and knowing the expertise here hopefully a whole lot more).

Pete.

[charlie962]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 Those are heavy casualties indeed for a single day, especially for a battalion fully entrenched in defence rather than in the open and assaulting.

Most of the losses were in the three forward Posts that were overrun by the Germans. Quantrell was probably in one of these:

Oppy Post  of 48 ORs, only 5 returned
Wood Post    45 ORS, only 15 returned
Beatty Post    84 ORs, only 6 returned

Commanding Officer concludes, inter alia, -

Notes for the Future
1. Frontline Posts must be lightly held..

 

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Most of the losses were in the three forward Posts that were overrun by the Germans. Quantrell was probably in one of these:

Oppy Post  of 48 ORs, only 5 returned
Wood Post    45 ORS, only 15 returned
Beatty Post    84 ORs, only 6 returned

Commanding Officer concludes, inter alia, -

Notes for the Future
1. Frontline Posts must be lightly held..

 

Charlie

The latter comment was merely recommending that the British do what the Germans had been practicing ever since they withdrew back to the Hindenburg line (Operation Alberich).  

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

merely recommending that the British do what the Germans had been practicing

The other 5 recommendations are interesting but I cannot send you a copy because your pm box is full, I think?

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, charlie962 said:

The other 5 recommendations are interesting but I cannot send you a copy because your pm box is full, I think?

Yes sorry I need to weed it again, I’ll do it directly.

[charlie962]

 

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I need to weed it again

oops-It could be mine that is full ! Will look tomorrow...

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, charlie962 said:

 

oops-It could be mine that is full ! Will look tomorrow...

Charlie

Let me know if you cannot get through.  I’ve weeded mine a bit.

[clk]

Hi Annie,

In the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records (link) there is a concentration sheet which shows that John was moved to his current burial place from map reference 51b.F.13.a.96.60

Image sourced from the CWGC

If you put that map reference into this website it will show you where that was, and is probably very close to the German hospital where he actually died.

If you would like a decent quality digital image of his current grave/headstone it looks like the good folk at British War Graves would be able to send you one on a free of charge basis - link.

His Soldiers Effects record (Ancestry link) names his wife (Grace) as being his "sole legatee". The use of that term implies that he left what was accepted as being a written will (however short) in her favour. In the obvious place to look (link) I didn't find it though. The search is very inflexible, and doesn't allow for misspellings, wild cards, etc.

The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his Soldiers Effects record can be used to back calculate when he probably joined up as the amount was generally made on the basis of rank and eligible war service (both 'home', and 'overseas' in theatre) prior to death. In your case the £10/- gives a back calculated date of approximately circa July 1916. I've not looked at Rifle Brigade number sequencing before, perhaps one of the real forum experts can pitch in, but from what I saw, if the the numbers were issued generally across the Battalions, 23100 O'Neill 'enlisted' 11.5.1916, and 23138 Fisher was posted to the 'Depot' from the Army Reserve on 19.6.1916. Given the short distance between the numbers of 23100 O'Neill and 23138 Fisher, and their apparent issue date, my guess would be that RB numbering isn't that straight forward.

Regards
Chris

[AnnieTaylor]

7 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Annie,

In the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records (link) there is a concentration sheet which shows that John was moved to his current burial place from map reference 51b.F.13.a.96.60

Image sourced from the CWGC

If you put that map reference into this website it will show you where that was, and is probably very close to the German hospital where he actually died.

If you would like a decent quality digital image of his current grave/headstone it looks like the good folk at British War Graves would be able to send you one on a free of charge basis - link.

His Soldiers Effects record (Ancestry link) names his wife (Grace) as being his "sole legatee". The use of that term implies that he left what was accepted as being a written will (however short) in her favour. In the obvious place to look (link) I didn't find it though. The search is very inflexible, and doesn't allow for misspellings, wild cards, etc.

The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his Soldiers Effects record can be used to back calculate when he probably joined up as the amount was generally made on the basis of rank and eligible war service (both 'home', and 'overseas' in theatre) prior to death. In your case the £10/- gives a back calculated date of approximately circa July 1916. I've not looked at Rifle Brigade number sequencing before, perhaps one of the real forum experts can pitch in, but from what I saw, if the the numbers were issued generally across the Battalions, 23100 O'Neill 'enlisted' 11.5.1916, and 23138 Fisher was posted to the 'Depot' from the Army Reserve on 19.6.1916. Given the short distance between the numbers of 23100 O'Neill and 23138 Fisher, and their apparent issue date, my guess would be that RB numbering isn't that straight forward.

Regards
Chris

Chris, that’s brilliant. Thank you very much! X 

[AnnieTaylor]

Thank you every one so much for your help. You’ve all been incredible! I am so excited & overwhelmed with information & my dad is absolutely speechless!! 
 

Here’s my dad (John, named after John Quantrell) visiting his grave when he lived in France. 

[charlie962]

11 hours ago, clk said:

The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his Soldiers Effects record can be used to back calculate when he probably joined up as the amount was generally made on the basis of rank and eligible war service (both 'home', and 'overseas' in theatre) prior to death. In your case the £10/- gives a back calculated date of approximately circa July 1916. I've not looked at Rifle Brigade number sequencing before, perhaps one of the real forum experts can pitch in, but from what I saw, if the the numbers were issued generally across the Battalions, 23100 O'Neill 'enlisted' 11.5.1916, and 23138 Fisher was posted to the 'Depot' from the Army Reserve on 19.6.1916. Given the short distance between the numbers of 23100 O'Neill and 23138 Fisher, and their apparent issue date, my guess would be that RB numbering isn't that straight forward.

The Widows Pension form on FindmyPast here repeats much of what Matlock picked up in that Pension Card he posted earlier on. But it has an extra piece of info. He 'joined for duty 19/6/16' (PS that form also says he was evenually 1st london regt !!)

Charlie