John Quaintrell/Quantrell - 228223 Royal Fusiliers (London Regiment) ex 23119 Rifle Brigade

[AnnieTaylor]

Hello, 

Not sure if this is the place to post? Google is driving me mad and the reviews for 'Find Ancestors Military Information' websites are not giving me much hope! 

I'm doing my family tree (Ancestry) which is a puzzle within its self, but I seem to be really struggling with connecting the dots within Military sections. Ancestry doesn't give much information and I don't have much additional information to add. I just wondered how to go about piecing this together? The best websites, forums etc. I don't mind paying an individual/ subscription and I know not all records are available. I just wanted to avoid placed like the gov. websites, where you have to essentially, 'try before you buy'. 

I have 3 main people I am trying to connect too, but I just have no idea how to go about it and I the information I have isn't enough for me, a novice, to do anything with. So, I wonder if anyone could help, or point me in the right direction, or just let me know if it will never happen.

So here's all the information I have and what I'm trying to find out, if possible. 

(Great Uncle)
John Quaintrell/ Quantrell born circa 1886 in St Lukes, London and died (in action) 1st April 1918 France and Flanders. He enlisted in Hackney Baths and was in the 1st Battalion Royal Fusiliers (Formally 23119, Rifle Brigade, Posted 1/4th London Reg and his regimental number was 228223. 
This is all the information we have on him. I wonder if this is a way to give a photograph of him. 

 

(My Grandad) 
Henry William Welch, born circa 1924 in Hoxton, London and is to believed to have been in the Rifle Brigade around 1944-1946. (Never saw action)
This is all the information we have on him. I would like to know if I could find a picture of him and if its possible to get his numbers. Some sites I've been on give me some information, but nothing that seems like a definite link. 

(My Great Uncle)
John Samuel Welch born circa 1919 in Hoxton, London. He was a POW in Germany. 
This is all the information we have on him. I would like to know if I could find a picture of him and if its possible to get his numbers. Some sites I've been on give me some information, but nothing that seems like a definite link. 

 

Thank you for any help or advice you can give!  

Edited 13 October , 2021 by AnnieTaylor

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum

This Forum is restricted to the Great War (also known as World War 1), so you should get some help here on John Quaintrell.

Your other two relatives are of World War 2 vintage - so for those I recommend you join the Forum from this link: WW2Talk

Regards

Russ

[AnnieTaylor]

Russ, thank you so much for that, greatly appreciated! 

[Matlock1418]

Annie,

Welcome to GWF.

More will likely come but I'll start you off with a bit of cross-over military/genealogical info:

Pte. John QUANTRELL,  228223, London Regiment

WFA/Fold3 have Pension cards for his widow and dependants.

This is probably the most informative one:

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

He seems to have been reported missing 28-3-18 but seems to be commemorated as having died 1-4-18 by CWGC  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/583750/j-quantrell  This 'difference' is not that unusual as it usually took some time to sort out casualties, especially if it had been a grim period, so the later date likely to have been a later roll-call at which he was accounted as missing/presumed dead [unless later evidence established the later date]

His widow put in for a standard Widow's Pension and later an Alternative Widows Pension [APW] - she received 25/5 per week made up of 13/9 for herself and 11/8 for the children under the Royal Warrant, Article 10(1) commencing 20/25-11-18 [for the intervening 6 months she would have received normal Separation Allowances whilst the pension was worked out]

Her date of birth was important for pensions as she would have received an age-related supplement if she was still claiming after age 40.

The £5 grant was a grant to assist with expenses associated with her husbands death, sometimes for mourning clothes and local newspaper 'In Memorium' entries - worth looking there as quite frequently there were photos on enlistment, during service and/or after death.  British Newspaper Archive and those made available by Find My Past are a couple of options for you.

The card is marked DEAD 1930, 12-1-31 This would have been when/after the claim was considered dead - likely after when the younger child reached 16 and was no longer eligible for a child's pension allowance.  It may also indicate that his widow had ceased to claim for herself, possibly due to remarriage or death.

Unfortunately the main Pension Awards file is long lost/deliberately destroyed after its use was passed.

Good luck with your other enquiries.

:-) M

Edited 13 October , 2021 by Matlock1418
expanded interpretation & newspaper suggestion and blitzed a typo

[AnnieTaylor]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Annie,

Welcome to GWF.

More will likely come but I'll start you off with a bit of cross-over military/genealogical info:

Pte. John QUANTRELL,  228223, London Regiment

WFA/Fold3 have Pension cards for his widow and dependants.

This is probably the most informative one:

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

He seems to have been reported missing 28-3-18 but seems to be commemorated as having died 1-4-18 by CWGC  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/583750/j-quantrell  This 'difference' is not that unusual as it usually took some time to sort out casualties, especially if it had been a grim period, so the later date likely to have been a later roll-call at which he was accounted as missing/presumed dead [unless later evidence established the later date]

His widow put in for a standard Widow's Pension and later an Alternative Widows Pension [APW] - she received 25/5 per week made up of 13/9 for herself and 11/8 for the children under the Royal Warrant, Article 10(1) commencing 20/25-11-18 [for the intervening 6 months she would have received normal Separation Allowances whilst the pension was worked out]

Good luck with your other enquiries

:-) M

 

[AnnieTaylor]

Hi Mat, 

I don't know if this is replying to you directly? Apologies if it isn't. 

WOW, how absolutely amazing that you have found this! Its incredible to see something after trying for so long! absolutely unreal, I'm blown away!!! 

Thank you so so much!

Annie  x 

[Matlock1418]

Annie,

Please note: Have edited/expanded my earlier pension post above - and made a further suggestion that you look at local newspapers for photos.

:-) M

[RussT]

His Medal Roll shows he first went overseas as 34112 of the 13th Battalion East Surrey Regiment on 26/04/1917 but was transferred to the 26th Bn Royal Fusiliers on 12/05/1917 and then transferring again to the 4th London Regiment on 14/02/1918.

Regards

Russ

[AnnieTaylor]

5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Annie,

Please note: Have edited/expanded my earlier pension post above - and made a further suggestion that you look at local newspapers for photos.

:-) M

Incredible Mat! I can't thank you enough!

Annie  x 

 

3 minutes ago, RussT said:

His Medal Roll shows he first went overseas as 34112 of the 13th Battalion East Surrey Regiment on 26/04/1917 but was transferred to the 26th Bn Royal Fusiliers on 12/05/1917 and then transferring again to the 4th London Regiment on 14/02/1918.

Regards

Russ

Wow Russ, that's very interesting! Thank you.  Where can I find the Medal Rolls? 

Annie  x 

[Matlock1418]

You may have already seen this - Russ' post about the Medal Roll would have lead to this Medal Index Card

Image courtesy of Ancestry

Just seen your latest post - so will answer = Medal Rolls are typically available/accessed via Ancestry.

:-) M

 

[RussT]

2 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Where can I find the Medal Rolls?

They are on Ancestry - here is the link:

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920

Regards

Russ

[AnnieTaylor]

5 minutes ago, RussT said:

They are on Ancestry - here is the link:

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920

Regards

Russ

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! 

Annie  x 

6 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

You may have already seen this - Russ' post about the Medal Roll would have lead to this Medal Index Card

Image courtesy of Ancestry

Just seen your latest post - so will answer = Medal Rolls are typically available/accessed via Ancestry.

:-) M

 

Thank you so much Mat! Do you know where I could find some photos, besides newspaper clippings? 

Annie  x 

[RussT]

There seems to be some confusion about his last Battalion.

The medal roll states 4th whereas his MIC looks like 1

His Soldiers Died Great War says 1st Battalion but his Soldiers' Effects Records states 1/4th.

CWGC has 1st Bn but the original graves registration report has 1/4th.

So I conclude 4th Bn (and 1/4th specifically) - I think there is enough there to get his CWGC details changed

Regards

Russ

[AnnieTaylor]

1 minute ago, RussT said:

There seems to be some confusion about his last Battalion.

The medal roll states 4th whereas his MIC looks like 1

His Soldiers Died Great War says 1st Battalion but his Soldiers' Effects Records states 1/4th.

CWGC has 1st Bn but the original graves registration report has 1/4th.

So I conclude 4th Bn (and 1/4th specifically) - I think there is enough there to get his CWGC details changed

Regards

Russ

Absolutely amazing what you've found for me already, unreal. I'm forever grateful! I'll look into getting that changed. 

Annie  x 

[AnnieTaylor]

I just found this too!  
New information gets me very excited!! 

Thanks so much for your help so far guys! Absolutely amazing. 

Annie  x 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Do you know where I could find some photos, besides newspaper clippings? 

Individual soldier photos were not taken for official purposes - so your next best bet is somewhere out their with family ;-/  Perhaps attached to a family tree [e.g. on Ancestry] - but do be careful there are often slips on trees. ;-/  :-(

He might perhaps have been included in military group photos, e.g. of the battalion, but the chances are that he won't be named - just one face amongst many unless you are very lucky [vanishingly small chance that you will find him named that way!]

Likewise sometimes in contemporary military publications, e.g. if in a sports team or a troop of entertainers and later perhaps in unit histories - but again chances are very slight.

We have no evidence [yet?] of any military award - so again that reduces the chance of being photographed.

Regimental museums are possibly worth an enquiry - but again I don't want to raise your hopes too high

Newspapers are probably really your best bet - but again you have to be realistic that not everyone got published!

Sorry!!

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

1/4th Battalion, London Regiment (City of London) - War Diary 1915 Nov. - 1919 May

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354938

Currently available to download for free from the National Archives after free registration [no financial details required for registration]

Very unlikely he is named in there [though he might perhaps be!] but must be worth a read to get a flavour of where he was and what was going on around him in his later/last days.

:-) M

Edited 13 October , 2021 by Matlock1418
source

[AnnieTaylor]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

Individual soldier photos were not taken for official purposes - so your next best bet is somewhere out their with family ;-/  Perhaps attached to a family tree [e.g. on Ancestry] - but do be careful there are often slips on trees. ;-/  :-(

He might perhaps have been included in military group photos, e.g. of the battalion, but the chances are that he won't be named - just one face amongst many unless you are very lucky [vanishingly small chance that you will find him named that way!]

Likewise sometimes in contemporary military publications, e.g. if in a sports team or a troop of entertainers and later perhaps in unit histories - but again chances are very slight.

We have no evidence [yet?] of any military award - so again that reduces the chance of being photographed.

Regimental museums are possibly worth an enquiry - but again I don't want to raise your hopes too high

Newspapers are probably really your best bet - but again you have to be realistic that not everyone got published!

Sorry!!

:-) M

Thanks Mat! Yes I've been browsing endless amounts of photos, but unfortunately, because I don't know what he looks like, I haven't been successful. 

Until you posted the pension, I had never even thought to see if he was married and had children. He is my dad's, nan's brother & so as he isn't a direct descendant of mine, we didn't look into him much. My dad remembers 1 or 2 stories about him, he also visited his grave when he lived in France. We're both history mad and have been doing the tree for a while - he also does some re-enacting and we both became fascinated with John - but we seemed to hit a brick wall for a while. 

Thanks so much for your help, I'll look into some news papers. 

Annie  x 
(sorry for the life story! I'm getting excited with the new information!)  

[Michelle Young]

You probably have this already, but it shows where he was originally buried, and where he’s now buried.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/583750/j-quantrell/

[AnnieTaylor]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

1/4th Battalion, London Regiment (City of London) - War Diary 1915 Nov. - 1919 May

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354938

Currently available to download for free after free registration [no financial details required for registration]

Very unlikely he is named in there [though he might perhaps be!] but must be worth a read to get a flavour of where he was and what was going on around him in his later/last days.

:-) M

Oh my, that's incredible Mat!! Thanks so much! You've made my year!! 

1 minute ago, Michelle Young said:

You probably have this already, but it shows where he was originally buried, and where he’s now buried.

Michelle, that's amazing! Thank you!! 

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, AnnieTaylor said:

Oh my, that's incredible Mat!! Thanks so much! You've made my year!! 

You are very welcome - I hope it helps.

Please do spread the good news about GWF to others - and if you have caught the bug then please do get involved in helping others too [that's what happened to me! - and so many others here!! :-)] - from small acorns GWF has grown and we, and so many others, have benefitted. :-)

Good luck.

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, AnnieTaylor said:

I just found this too!  
New information gets me very excited!! 

Thanks so much for your help so far guys! Absolutely amazing. 

Annie  x 

Are you sure this document refers to the same man Annie, as he lists the 7th Battalion Royal Fusiliers as his existing unit at the point of attestation?  It seems then that this particular Quantrell was initially a member of the 7th (Extra Reserve) Battalion, where he would have been trained.  

The Royal Fusiliers was one of just a few unusual regiments, whose Territorial Force (TF) units were all listed separately as part of the TF only London Regiment.  As with all the line infantry regiments, the Royal Fusiliers had some regular (professional) battalions and then some auxiliary (part-time) battalions divided into two types, Reserve (Special and Extra) and TF (the latter hived off separately as mentioned).  In addition there was a fourth type of unit for the duration of the war called ‘Service Battalions’ that were raised for use until the end of hostilities only.

Ergo the Royal Fusiliers had 1st to 4th regular battalions, 5th and 6th Special Reserve (training battle replacements for the four regular battalions), 7th Extra Reserve (also intended for training battle replacements for the regulars, but additionally with a specified home defence role).  Then very numerous Service Battalions (including several sub categories such as for garrison service only).  Finally there were the entirely separate, but affiliated TF battalions under the administration of the London Regiment (the first four (1st to 4th) units of the London Regiment were all affiliated to the Royal Fusiliers and in addition each of them created two duplicates, so that there were, e.g. a 1/4th, 2/4th and 3/4th battalions).  To those unfamiliar it’s very confusing and not at all logical.

You really need to check that it is the same man.

See:

1.  Royal Fusiliers: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/

2. London Regiment: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

NB.  It’s especially important that you understand that there was a 4th (regulars) Battalion Royal Fusiliers, but also a 4th Battalion of the London Regiment (affiliated and badged Royal Fusiliers).  When RussT was mentioning the 4th above he was referring to the latter of those.  As you can see below the regular 4th Royal Fusiliers ‘shoulder title’ in 1914 was much simpler than that of the 4th London’s for the same date (the T stands for Territorial).  Despite that difference, both wore exactly the same cap badge.

 

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[AnnieTaylor]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Are you sure this document refers to the same man Annie, as he lists the 7th Battalion Royal Fusiliers as his existing unit at the point of attestation?  It seems then that this particular Quantrell was initially a member of the 7th (Extra Reserve) Battalion, where he would have trained.  

The Royal Fusiliers was one of just a few unusual regiments, whose Territorial Force (TF) units were all listed separately as part of the TF only London Regiment.  As with all the line infantry regiments, it had some regular (professional) battalions and then some auxiliary (part-time) battalions divided into two types, Reserve (Special and Extra) and TF (the latter hived off separately as mentioned).  In addition there was a fourth type of unit for the duration of the war called ‘Service Battalions’ that were raised for use until the end of hostilities only.

Ergo the Royal Fusiliers had 1st to 4th regular battalions, 5th and 6th Special Reserve (training battle replacements for the four regular battalions), 7th Extra Reserve (also intended for training battle replacements for the regulars, but additionally with a specified home defence role).  Then very numerous Service Battalions (including several sub categories such as for garrison service only).  Finally there were the entirely separate, but affiliated TF battalions under the administration of the London Regiment (the first four (1st to 4th) units of the London Regiment were all affiliated to the Royal Fusiliers and in addition each of them created two duplicates, so that there were, e.g. a 1/4th, 2/4th and 3/4th battalions).  To those unfamiliar it’s very confusing and not at all logical.

You really need to check that it is the same man.

See:

1.  Royal Fusiliers: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/

2. London Regiment: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

NB.  It’s especially important that you understand that there was a 4th (regulars) Battalion Royal Fusiliers, but also a 4th Battalion of the London Regiment (affiliated and badged Royal Fusiliers).  When RussT was mentioning the 4th above he was referring to the latter of those. 

Thank you Frogsmile. 
My dad believes he was in the war before he joined the 1st battalion. But I’ll check them again tomorrow when I have more time. 

Thanks so much for your help  

xx

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, AnnieTaylor said:

Thank you Frogsmile. 
My dad believes he was in the war before he joined the 1st battalion. But I’ll check them again tomorrow when I have more time. 

Thanks so much for your help  

xx

I know that it must seem very confusing and I’ve tried to explain it as clearly as I can, but there are plenty of folk here in the forum who will try to assist you with interpreting whatever documents you can find.

[AnnieTaylor]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I know that it must seem very confusing and I’ve tried to explain it as clearly as I can, but there are plenty of folk here in the forum who will try to assist you with interpreting whatever documents you can find.

Thank you! I appreciate your help  x