Black Backing to MGC Collar Badges

[JamesBuck]

Good day

I have these officer's bronze collar badges with a black backing. The black baize looks contemporary but I can find no reference for such a backing. Does anyone have any ideas?

Many thanks 

[FROGSMILE]

I wonder if it has any connection with the early days of the Tank Corps, whose colour was famously black.  Formed from the Heavy Branch MGC, from memory I think they initially wore MGC collar insignia.  However, that’s just my speculation and it needs more in depth research.

Edited 11 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[JamesBuck]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I wonder if it has any connection with the early days of the Tank Corps whose colour was famously black.  Formed from the Heavy Branch MGC, from memory I think they initially wore MGC collar insignia.  However, that’s just my speculation and it needs more in depth research.

Good call. That was one of my thoughts but so far I've not been able to find any examples of collar badges being worn with backing. The search continues. Thanks 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, JamesBuck said:

Good call. That was one of my thoughts but so far I've not been able to find any examples of collar badges being worn with backing. The search continues. Thanks 

I think it might have been later on when the corps became the Royal Tank Regiment that the colour black became more significant.  I’m not sure (cannot recall the detail) of the precise chronology, but seem to recall that it might’ve been connected with the adoption of a black beret as special headdress.  Around the same time black overalls seem to have become popular as they did not show oil stains quite so starkly.  Forum member @Gareth Davieshas some specialist knowledge and might perhaps be able to comment.

Edited 11 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[JamesBuck]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think it might have been later on when the corps became the Royal Tank Regiment that the colour black became more significant.  I’m not sure (cannot recall the detail) of the precise chronology, but seem to recall that it might’ve been connected with the adoption of a black beret as special headdress.  Around the same time black overalls seem to have become popular as they did not show oil stains quite so starkly.  Forum member @Gareth Davieshas some specialist knowledge and might perhaps be able to comment.

Thank you for your comments @FROGSMILE It looks like some sort of theme is developing here. 

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, JamesBuck said:

Thank you for your comments @FROGSMILE It looks like some sort of theme is developing here. 

Yes.  It seems that the Tank Corps armlet (worn by Tank Corps staff officers in formation HQs) was black from quite early on.  

Edited 11 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[JamesBuck]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes.  It seems that the Tank Corps armlet (worn by Tank Corps staff officers in formation HQs) was black from quite early on.  

That's very interesting. Thanks 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, JamesBuck said:

That's very interesting. Thanks 

Correction: the armlet is dark blue, the standard colour for Brigade level staff.  It’s just the cloth tank badge that indicates a Tank specialist.  Ergo, e.g. a MGC staff officer would have the exact same colour armlet but a MGC badge on it.

NB.  Bottom line is it’s still unclear what the black backing refers to.  It might well be a specific unit (battalion) rather than the corps as a whole. A good example is the 33rd Battalion of the MGC who used a black representation of the cap badge as part of their unit flag.

Edited 11 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Gareth Davies]

It's a bit too niche for me but @pjwmacro might know.

[Gunner Hall]

Mess dress collar badges?  This from the Prospect of Whitby Antiques site-  Hard to tell if the collar is blue or black.

http://prospectofwhitbyantiques.com/images/made/images/uploads/mgcaptain_450_219.jpg

Edited 12 October , 2021 by Gunner Hall
Image didn't embed

[JamesBuck]

Thanks everyone - still a mystery but the Tank Corps theme may be on the right track.

[Andrew Upton]

1 hour ago, Gunner Hall said:

Mess dress collar badges?  This from the Prospect of Whitby Antiques site-  Hard to tell if the collar is blue or black.

http://prospectofwhitbyantiques.com/images/made/images/uploads/mgcaptain_450_219.jpg

I have better photos of this set, and another one - collar badges were silver or silver plated, and worn without any backings on the lapels.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

Mess dress collar badges?  This from the Prospect of Whitby Antiques site-  Hard to tell if the collar is blue or black.

http://prospectofwhitbyantiques.com/images/made/images/uploads/mgcaptain_450_219.jpg

Thank you for those images Gunner Hall.  There’s an intention to do a project on mess dress at a later stage and so details of the MGC pattern are most useful.  Unfortunately they were disbanded before their full uniform details could be published in the next iteration of dress regulations. 

Edited 12 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner Hall]

34 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for those images Gunner Hall.  There’s an intention to do a project on mess dress at a later stage and so details of the MGC pattern are most useful.  Unfortunately they were disbanded before their full uniform details could be published in the next iteration of dress regulations. 

I'd love to see that project come to fruition.  If an ex Gunner - now qualified Librarian can help, let me know!

 

.  

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Gunner Hall said:

I'd love to see that project come to fruition.  If an ex Gunner - now qualified Librarian can help, let me know!

 

.  

I will do so.  We need to finish the current project first, but it’s definitely something we’re aiming to do.  Thank you for your support and encouragement.

NB.  I’m intrigued that the facings appear to be maroon (?) and not dissimilar to the Parachute Regiment.

Edited 12 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner Hall]

They look black / dark blue on my PC screen,  but on my phone they are para maroon!  Just checking now for another regiment with maroon facings.

 

GH

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Gunner Hall said:

They look black / dark blue on my PC screen,  but on my phone they are para maroon!  Just checking now for another regiment with maroon facings.

 

GH

In theory the facing colour should be shown in the ‘Army List’ for the years between formation and disbandment, as it was traditional for the war office issued version (there were more detailed commercial variants) to list basic details of full dress and facing colour under each regimental/corps listing.

NB.  There might also be a clue to the black backed badges in the historical society booklet published to show the various cloth badges worn on the jacket and sometimes painted on helmets of MGC units.

Edited 13 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[JamesBuck]

Interesting. I've been trying to get sight of this publication. I don't think it would be necessary to put a backing on a metal badge applied to a Blues uniform. But the 111th Coy is an interesting possibility. Thanks 

Edited 13 October , 2021 by JamesBuck

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, JamesBuck said:

Interesting. I've been trying to get sight of this publication. I don't think it would be necessary to put a backing on a metal badge applied to a Blues uniform. But the 111th Coy is an interesting possibility. Thanks 

There were several other units that used coloured cloth shapes of the detailed cap badge itself, including the 34th MGC Company, which emphasised the black shade as meaningful to them.  There’s also this excellent Blog where you may perhaps be able to pose your question (The webmaster is a member here too):  https://vickersmg.blog/in-use/accessories/personal-equipment-of-machine-gunners/uniforms/

Edited 13 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[JamesBuck]

Thanks @FROGSMILE I'm in contact with Rich

 

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, JamesBuck said:

Thanks @FROGSMILE I'm in contact with Rich

 

Excellent!  I’ll be interested to know if he ever researched the full dress / mess dress that would have been listed for the MGC during its existence.  Although full dress was discontinued for other ranks it remained an optional item of dress for officers and would have been expected for such things as levees (presentation to the sovereign, or Prince of Wales).  Older officers close to retirement were permitted to retain their former regiment’s uniform (‘grandfather’s rights’) but young, newly commissioned officers in say, 1920, would as an absolute minimum have required MGC mess dress.

Edited 13 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[pjwmacro]

On 12/10/2021 at 09:58, Gareth Davies said:

It's a bit too niche for me but @pjwmacro might know.

Not sure I can add anything conclusive.

[pjwmacro]

On 11/10/2021 at 22:39, FROGSMILE said:

I wonder if it has any connection with the early days of the Tank Corps, whose colour was famously black.  Formed from the Heavy Branch MGC, from memory I think they initially wore MGC collar insignia.  However, that’s just my speculation and it needs more in depth research.

I am afraid I think the Tank Corps link is a red (or even black) herring - the black beret wasn't adopted formally until the Tank Corps became Royal in 1923 and the black coveralls not until the mid 1930s. The MGC unit backing theory sounds more likely in my opinion.

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

I am afraid I think the Tank Corps link is a red (or even black) herring - the black beret wasn't adopted formally until the Tank Corps became Royal in 1923 and the black coveralls not until the mid 1930s. The MGC unit backing theory sounds more likely in my opinion.

Thank you, I was coming to that conclusion too.  I just wasn’t 100% sure, earlier, as to whether the very earliest inklings of the association with the colour black as a particular feature might have preceded the RTR beret, etc.

Edited 13 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[delta]

I have looked carefully and can find no sign of backing on early photos of tank skippers / instructors. 

The first is at Elveden in late Summer 1916; the second is in France in early 1917.