Armband

[12th battalion]

Good morning

I was sent a photo by a friend of his grandfather who served with the 12th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles. He cant identify what the armband that his grandfather is wearing on his right arm relates to. Would anybody have seen this armband before. I think I can see the letters C H if that is of any help.

[FROGSMILE]

He doesn’t have the black buttons usually worn as a regimental distinction by the Royal Irish Rifles, although very occasionally it’s because none were available at the time the jacket was issued.  It’s possible though that he was with a different unit.  On his left cuff he has two wound stripes, one issued for ‘each occasion wounded’.  On his right upper arm is a worsted grenade badge worn in different colours according to whether the wearer was a bomber (specialist in hand and rifle launched grenades), or a trench mortar man (operator of a tube launched projectile from batteries positioned in trenches, most commonly of the Stokes type).  My guess is that he’s a trench mortar man and the armlet (aka brassard) marks him as on the instructional staff at an Army or other formation school (these were common in divisions and corps).  The C and H are probably the last letters of ‘Trench’, but that is my conjecture.

From the LongLongTrail, the trench mortar schools were located as follows:

First Army – at Saint-Venant (and had originally been I Corps Trench Mortar School)

Second Army – at Berthen (certainly by spring 1915) but later Leulinghem (by mid-1917)

Third Army – at Saint-Pol-sur-Ternoise

NB.  There was probably some experimental work going on at an artillery range in Britain too.

Edited 7 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

On his right cuff he also has 3 overseas service chevrons (one looking thicker or different colour suggesting 1914?) as well as what looks like another cuff band ! Quite a collection.

Charlie

Edited 7 October , 2021 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

On his right cuff he also has 3 overseas service chevrons (one looking thicker or different colour suggesting 1914?) as well as what looks like another cuff band ! Quite a collection.

Charlie

Yes that’s a really good spot Charlie!  I can see the overseas chevrons, but the additional armlet down on the right cuff looks decidedly odd.  The only one that I know of as commonly worn there (but not always) is that for a regimental policeman.  It’s not at all normal to be wearing two.

Edited 7 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

armlet down on the right cuff looks decidedly odd.

Could it be one of those coloured bands worn on excercise or even a canary?

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Could it be one of those coloured bands worn on excercise or even a canary?

The upper band / armlet might be a Canary as the skill at arms staff often wore the yellow arm band with specialism superimposed, e.g. crossed rifles or swords, or letters, but the only lower band I’ve seen commonly worn was RP.

Edited 7 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

commonly worn was RP.

That almost looks like a hint of a 'P' on that lower armlet?

[Alan24]

46 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

From the LongLongTrail, the trench mortar schools were located as follows:

First Army – at Saint-Venant (and had originally been I Corps Trench Mortar School)

Second Army – at Berthen (certainly by spring 1915) but later Leulinghem (by mid-1917)

Third Army – at Saint-Pol-sur-Ternoise

NB.  There was probably some experimental work going on at an artillery range in Britain too.

Does the presence of a female in the photo suggest that it was taken in the UK?

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

That almost looks like a hint of a 'P' on that lower armlet?

I can see what you mean Charlie, I personally don’t feel confident that’s not a shadow on the cloth though.

16 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Does the presence of a female in the photo suggest that it was taken in the UK?

Yes I believe so Alan given the setting, that’s why I mentioned the experimental aspects going on at artillery ranges.  The two arm bands are just hard to reconcile given all these factors as a whole.

Edited 7 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, Alan24 said:

Does the presence of a female in the photo suggest that it was taken in the UK?

It's not a female in that photo. The image is from the Balkans Front.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

It's not a female in that photo. The image is from the Balkans Front.   Pete.

Is it a man with a straw bonnet Pete?  The OP's photo from a phone screen capture does seem to show a figure with breasts and a nipped in double breasted jacket that exposes the lower arms.  Very female looking even when only partially seen.

Edited 7 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Is it a man with a straw bonnet Pete?  The OP's photo from a phone screen capture does seem to show a figure with breasts and a nipped in double breasted jacket that exposes the lower arms.

 

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Is it a man with a straw bonnet Pete?  The OP's photo from a phone screen capture does seem to show a figure with breasts and a nipped in double breasted jacket that exposes the lower arms.

Frogsmile, my mistake, I thought we were talking about the mortar crew in post 2. I thought it was a reference to the man on the weapon looking a bit feminine, no disrespect to him of course. As if they would allow a woman anywhere near such a weapon back then!!!. Put it down to old age.       Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

 

Frogsmile, my mistake, I thought we were talking about the mortar crew in post 2. I thought it was a reference to the man on the weapon looking a bit feminine, no disrespect to him of course. As if they would allow a woman anywhere near such a weapon back then!!!. Put it down to old age.       Pete.

Well it's made me chuckle Pete, and in the world situation today I'll settle for that any time.

[Alan24]

36 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Is it a man with a straw bonnet Pete?  The OP's photo from a phone screen capture does seem to show a figure with breasts and a nipped in double breasted jacket that exposes the lower arms.  Very female looking even when only partially seen.

[12th battalion]

6 hours ago, 12th battalion said:

Good morning

I was sent a photo by a friend of his grandfather who served with the 12th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles. He cant identify what the armband that his grandfather is wearing on his right arm relates to. Would anybody have seen this armband before. I think I can see the letters C H if that is of any help.

 

6 hours ago, 12th battalion said:

Good morning

I was sent a photo by a friend of his grandfather who served with the 12th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles. He cant identify what the armband that his grandfather is wearing on his right arm relates to. Would anybody have seen this armband before. I think I can see the letters C H if that is of any help.

The person who I was in contact send me a further update:            My grandfather was also in the 108th trench mortar battery

 grandfather was also in the 108th trench mortar battery!

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you, that closer view is very helpful.  I don't think it is a lower band now, it appears to be his shirt cuff protruding beneath the edge of his SD jacket sleeve.

Edited 7 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

25 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

As if they would allow a woman anywhere near such a weapon back then!!!

Just to say  that this has been reported to the Double Entendre Police, and an ajudication is expected shortly.

[FROGSMILE]

Adjudication, or audition Ron?

[charlie962]

On 07/10/2021 at 17:28, FROGSMILE said:

 I don't think it is a lower band now, it appears to be his shirt cuff protruding beneath the edge of his SD jacket sleeve.

I hesitate to say I disagree?

Charlie

[GWF1967]

14 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I hesitate to say I disagree?

Charlie

I agree to disagree. There is tunic cuff protruding below the “armband”. 

Edited 9 October , 2021 by GWF1967

[mancpal]

I lean towards there being a lower  armband though wouldn’t have a clue what it would indicate.

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

If there were an armband there would be a sharper edge at its top distinguishing it from the rest of the sleeve, in just the same way as where the shirt cuff and lower edge join is stark.  I wouldn’t ordinarily be so confident, but it’s something that I’ve seen in the flesh (as it were) in various conditions of light and shade.

Edited 9 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

If it isn't a lower band then wouldn't that mean the overseas chevrons mentioned above are positioned far to close to the cuff. I don't know the regs for the position of the chevrons but had assumed a similar distance from the cuff as the wound stripes on the opposite sleeve.

Simon

[clk]

Hi 12th battalion (Jim?),

Absolutely no 'egg sucking' intended, but who are you actually talking about? Are there any surviving papers?

Regards
Chris

 

Edited 9 October , 2021 by clk

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, mancpal said:

If it isn't a lower band then wouldn't that mean the overseas chevrons mentioned above are positioned far to close to the cuff. I don't know the regs for the position of the chevrons but had assumed a similar distance from the cuff as the wound stripes on the opposite sleeve.

Simon

I don’t see anything inappropriate about the positioning of the overseas service chevrons on lower right sleeve in subject photo.