Cap Badge Identification/Confirmation Please:

[MERLINV12]

I need some expert guidance please, researching a friend's GF,  he thinks the cap badge is Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (as he did serve with them in Alexandria late war/post-war), but from my limited knowledge I think it is Worcestershire Regt, or another Regt with similar design.

Sorry, about resolution of photo. Any help greatly appreciated.

Michael.

[MERLINV12]

Please forgive the novice question, would it be possible that British troops in Italy (late war period) would have worn Tropical Uniform, if indeed that what the photo depicts.

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

[Michelle Young]

Certainly not OBLI. Worcesters looks a good call. 

[EDWARD1]

Another contender would be The Cheshire Regiment. Their scroll has more of an upward curve. The motto "FIRM" cannot be seen on the  OP pic but that may be due to the resolution

[MERLINV12]

Thanks Both .

[FROGSMILE]

Yes there were four regiments with similar badges and the subtle differences in the configuration of the scroll are the principal way to determine the difference between them.  Also the Worcestershire Regiment star is a little smaller.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Merlinv12

Most unlikely, I think. The British forces in Italy were deployed in the north of Italy, and fought in climate conditions similar to those in France.

Ron

[FROGSMILE]

Like Ron, I’ve seen no evidence that British troops in WW1 Italy wore tropical uniform.  There some good images of typical dress here: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2017/jan/12/first-world-war-italy-pictures-photography

Edited 5 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MERLINV12]

51 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes there were four regiments with similar badges and the subtle differences in the configuration of the scroll are the principal way to determine the difference between them.  Also the Worcestershire Regiment star is a little smaller.

THANKS, I knew I could rely on you 

[Knotty]

Hi Merlin

If it was the Worcester’s we are probably looking at the 9th (Service) Battalion who were landed at Gallipoli as part of the 39th Brigade in the 13th (Western) Division in July 1915; when the battalion was evacuated from Gallipoli they transferred to Egypt in January 1916 and subsequently to the North Persia Force in July 1918

[PRC]

I've not come across images of it being worn, but as well as the fighting in the north I believe there were also base areas at Brindisi and Taranto which included medical facilities and convalescence camps. Has this man or his unit been identified?

Cheers,
Peter

[MERLINV12]

Thanks for the replies, which were what I expected.

The puzzle I have is that the chap in the photo only ever served with the 3rd Batt OBLI & 1/8th Worcester Regt.

The cap badge is 99.99% Worcester Regt, he served with them from 28/10/18 to 25/3/19, from what it says on LLT, no battalion of the Worcesters served anywhere that would need tropical uniform during that period. The nearest I could see to a warm climate was Italy, hence the question.

Any suggestions ??

[MERLINV12]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

I've not come across images of it being worn, but as well as the fighting in the north I believe there were also base areas at Brindisi and Taranto which included medical facilities and convalescence camps. Has this man or his unit been identified?

Cheers,
Peter

Peter,

He is Herbert Willison Shepherd, 3rd Batt OBLI 45943 & 1/8th Worcester 59536, SR not available.

Thanks

Michael.

[DavidOwen]

According to FMP's indexing of his MIC he was previously 45943 Private Ox and Bucks then 59536 Worcestershire then 49464 Ox and Bucks again?

[MERLINV12]

4 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

then 49464 Ox and Bucks again?

Yes, family legend has it that he went back to OBLI post war (after 25/3/19), and was posted to Alexandria/Egypt to control unrest, that would fit with the uniform, but the cap badge (Worcester) is the fly in the ointment 

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, MERLINV12 said:

Yes, family legend has it that he went back to OBLI post war (after 25/3/19), and was posted to Alexandria/Egypt to control unrest, that would fit with the uniform, but the cap badge (Worcester) is the fly in the ointment 

Peter’s point about Brindisi and Taranto is well made and there would have been some administrative and garrison grade LofC troops there who might well have worn clothing more appropriate to the climate.  Shirtsleeve order with collarless, ‘grey-back’ shirts was becoming popular as a practical dress with more enlightened officers and shortened SD trousers had been used in similar circumstances before.  It’s the Wolseley helmet that’s a sticking point for me and I don’t think that they would have been a supply chain item for the Italian theatre of operations.

Edited 5 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MERLINV12]

Is there anything else that can be learnt from his dress/uniform ?

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, MERLINV12 said:

Is there anything else that can be learnt from his dress/uniform ?

Not a great deal.  He wears a non standard shirt with chest pockets and a floppy collar probably purchased in a bazaar tailor’s shop.  His shorts do not appear to be the stout cotton twill of khaki drill (KD), and are held up by what seems to me to be a belt from the 1903 leather bandolier equipment.  To my eyes the shorts have more of the texture of wool, although I cannot be certain.  The boots and puttees without hose-tops are pretty common for that period.

Edited 5 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MERLINV12]

THANKS 

[MERLINV12]

2 hours ago, Knotty said:

Hi Merlin

If it was the Worcester’s we are probably looking at the 9th (Service) Battalion who were landed at Gallipoli as part of the 39th Brigade in the 13th (Western) Division in July 1915; when the battalion was evacuated from Gallipoli they transferred to Egypt in January 1916 and subsequently to the North Persia Force in July 1918

Thanks for the info, the family have the card shown below showing 1/8th Batt.

[Ron Clifton]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

I've not come across images of it being worn, but as well as the fighting in the north I believe there were also base areas at Brindisi and Taranto which included medical facilities and convalescence camps. Has this man or his unit been identified?

Cheers,
Peter

The bases at Brindisi, and especially Taranto, were points on the "Mediterranean Lines of Communication", a rail and sea route which ran from Cherbourg, through France and along the coast, then all the way down Italy to Taranto, then by sea to Alexandria. It was a supply and evacuation route for troops in the Middle East, although the part through France also served the British troops in the north of Italy. Taranto is famous as the location of a mutiny by troops of the British West Indies Regiment who objected to the fact that they were only used on what were in effect labour duties, rather than as front-line troops.

3rd Bn O&BLI only served in the UK.

Ron

[CorporalPunishment]

That is not the Worcestershire Regiment cap badge, the shape of the scroll and the size of the star don't fit. It is one of the other three in Frogsmile's post. My money is on the East Yorkshire Regiment.       Pete.

[EDWARD1]

Not East Yorks as the scroll does not join the star at positions 3&9. Not East Surrey as no Crown.

[Knotty]

36 minutes ago, MERLINV12 said:

Thanks for the info, the family have the card shown below showing 1/8th Batt.

I had assumed that we were possibly talking about the  1915-1917 period when the 9th were stationed in Egypt and the Middle East and in the Tropical uniform.

The 1/8th Battalion Territorial Force, short history
04.08.1914 Stationed at Worcester at the outbreak of war, as part of the Gloucester & Worcester Brigade of the South Midlands Division.
Aug 1914 Moved to Swindon and then onto Maldon, Essex.
31.03.1915 Mobilised for war and landed at Boulogne.
13.05.1915 Formation became the 144th Brigade of the 48th Division and the Division was engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1916 :- The Battle of Albert, The Battle of Pozieres Ridge, The Battle of the Ancre Heights, The Battle of the Ancre. 
During 1917:- The German Retreat to the Hindenburg Line, in which the Division occupied Peronne, The Battle of Langemarck, The Battle of Polygon Wood, The Battle of Broodseinde, The Battle of Poelcapelle.
Nov 1917 Moved to Italy and the Division took part in the action on the Asiago Plateau.
Sep 1918 Moved back to France arriving at St. Riquier and joining the 75th Brigade of the 25th Division and once again engaged in action on the Western Front including;
The Battle of Cambrai 1918, The Pursuit to and Battle of the Selle, The Battle of the Sambre.
11.11.1918 Ended the war in France, Preux north of Landrecies.

As you can see the 1/8th were in Italy from Nov 17 to Sept 18, before your chap joined them so he could not have been with them in Italy.

[Knotty]

Sorry to throw this one into the mix, could it just be a studio photo taken before his overseas deployment and the pith helmet is just a prop?