Photos from Egypt during WW1?

[Huttles94]

Hello,

I have doing some cleaning in my grandfathers office and came across a small green envelope full of around 20 negatives. All 127 format and after scanning them it, it seems that they are most likely from my Great Grandfather during his time during WW1 (He was stationed at mustapha Alexandria). I even have the camera I believe the photos were taken with!

Though I cannot be 100% certain, I am no historian. Unfortunately the only person who could of told me where the negatives came from. my grandfather, passed away earlier this year. 

Ill upload all the photos here for others to see. My grandfather was not a photo collector and so I cant see him buying a set of old negatives so they must be from my family.  

Either way they are an interesting insight to the soldiers lives during the war. 

I don't recognise my Great grandfather in any of the photos but some of them are too dark to see their faces. Though I would assume he was the one taking the photos.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any comments!

Cheers  

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Great contemporary shots Huttles,

Yes, they must be amateur shots, as they capture the mundane, everyday and candid, rather than being rigid studio professional shots.
Thanks for posting them.

With regards to your great-grandfather, do you know his rank, regiment and service number.

A few of the soldiers have cap badges that are nearly identifiable, but they all seem to be of the "castle within a wreath" style, such as Devons, Northants and more, or possibly "sphinx in a wreath" like South Wales Borderes.

[FROGSMILE]

I could see a mix of badges, including an RAMC man in one of the group shots.  One chap seen individually and in the group has black, Rifles pattern buttons and a badge of either, KRRC or one of the London Regiment battalions that used a similar style.  Another fellow was likewise either Rifle Brigade or a London Regiment unit with similar insignia.  It’s made me wonder if the units were all part of a Light Division.  The location does appear to be in the Middle East somewhere.

Edited 3 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Huttles94]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Great contemporary shots Huttles,

Yes, they must be amateur shots, as they capture the mundane, everyday and candid, rather than being rigid studio professional shots.
Thanks for posting them.

With regards to your great-grandfather, do you know his rank, regiment and service number.

A few of the soldiers have cap badges that are nearly identifiable, but they all seem to be of the "castle within a wreath" style, such as Devons, Northants and more, or possibly "sphinx in a wreath" like South Wales Borderes.

Thank you,

Yes his name was Frank Hutley and he was a private in the Essex regiment. His service number was 36705

 

I do have other photos that show my great grandfather in Egypt (along with his WW1 diary). I shall post the photos here.

 

      Pte Frank Hutley 36705

 

      Frank Hutley on the left in Mustapha

 

 

   Frank Hutley on the left

 

   Frank Hutley on the right

 

 Mustapha

 

  Mustapha agian

 

  Frank Hutley second row from bottom far left (marked)

 

I also think I have the camera my great grandfather used during the war. As all the negatives (ones in the first post, these photos were scanned from the printed photos, I do not have the negatives for these) are of 127 format. My reason for thinking this is that I found a Kodak vest pocket autograph model with a serial number dating it to 1917 (the year my Great grandfather signed up) in my Grandfathers garage along with some other 100+ year old cameras.

 

 

Edited 3 October , 2021 by Huttles94

[TEW]

Your other post seems to have concluded that the triangular patch (modern photo) was for 11th Essex. No Egypt service for them. Initially I thought the contemporary photo shows a 29th Division triangle on the headwear. This could tally with 1st Essex who were in Egypt before and after Gallipoli. However, his MIC has no 'date of entry' so he didn't serve in Gallipoli. Perhaps joined them in Egypt early 1916?

Difficult to tell if the two patches are the same item, he would have had the divisional red triangle and a 'regimental patch' for 1/7/16 assuming 1st Essex is correct.

Otherwise for Essex + Egypt there's a territorial and a garrison battalion.

Medal roll gives no unit.

TEW

[KernelPanic]

One of my great-great uncles served in the 1/5th Battalion, Essex Regiment. William Dixon, 36751, so a close service number to Frank Hutley. William was from Chester-le-Street Co. Durham and attested in December 1915. He arrived in Egypt on May 31st 1917. His service record survives. 

[Woodnbits]

Thanks for posting the photographs.

FMP has a Medical Record

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FMH106%2FP2%2F347548

Transcribed as Hotley not Hutley 36705 1/5th Essex Regiment

Birth year 1897

28/11/1917 transfer from 19th General Hospital to Com Hp Montazah

There is a Montazah close to Alexandria.

Tim

 

[Huttles94]

16 minutes ago, TEW said:

Your other post seems to have concluded that the triangular patch (modern photo) was for 11th Essex. No Egypt service for them. Initially I thought the contemporary photo shows a 29th Division triangle on the headwear. This could tally with 1st Essex who were in Egypt before and after Gallipoli. However, his MIC has no 'date of entry' so he didn't serve in Gallipoli. Perhaps joined them in Egypt early 1916?

Difficult to tell if the two patches are the same item, he would have had the divisional red triangle and a 'regimental patch' for 1/7/16 assuming 1st Essex is correct.

Otherwise for Essex + Egypt there's a territorial and a garrison battalion.

Medal roll gives no unit.

TEW

I believe he joined up in 1917. I have his diary which shows he was in the Essex Regiment and in Egypt (travelled through Europe and hopped on a HMT saxon and stopped at Malta on the way). No idea what conflicts he was apart of or anything. All we have are photos. 

Frank_Hutley_WW1_Diary.pdf

 

2 minutes ago, KernelPanic said:

One of my great-great uncles served in the 1/5th Battalion, Essex Regiment. William Dixon, 36751, so a close service number to Frank Hutley. William was from Chester-le-Street Co. Durham and attested in December 1915. He arrived in Egypt on May 31st 1917. His service record survives. 

My Great grandfather was living in Metheringham Lincoln (Where he is buried) when he signed up. He had two brothers, one in the Lincolnshire regiment and I cannot remember the other. 

[Huttles94]

1 minute ago, Woodnbits said:

Thanks for posting the photographs.

FMP has a Medical Record

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FMH106%2FP2%2F347548

Transcribed as Hotley not Hutley 36705 1/5th Essex Regiment

Birth year 1897

28/11/1917 transfer from 19th General Hospital to Com Hp Montazah

There is a Montazah close to Alexandria.

Tim

 

Interesting. I do know he was discharged due to dysentery 

[FROGSMILE]

The very uppermost photo, where you placed his name alongside, he’s not wearing an Essex Regiment badge.  Albeit squinting on my phone screen, it appears to be the star badge of the Army Service Corps (ASC).

Edited 3 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Huttles94]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

The very uppermost photo where you placed his name alongside he’s not wearing an Essex Regiment badge.  Albeit squinting on my phone screen it appears to be the star badge of the Army Service Corps (ASC).

Aye I have been told that before. Its odd since his medal and diary say he served in the essex regiment. Could he have joined one and then sent to another regiment? 

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Huttles94 said:

Aye I have been told that before. Its odd since his medal and diary say he served in the essex regiment. Could he have joined one and then sent to another regiment? 

He’s ranked as an ASC ‘Driver’ (Private equivalent) in that first photo, then in the photo stood with a group by a tent he’s wearing the 2-stripes of a full corporal (or perhaps acting corporal, it could be either), and that implies that he was combed out from the ASC into the infantry.

Edited 3 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Huttles94]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

He’s ranked as a Driver (Private equivalent) in that first photo, then in the photo stood with a group by a tent he’s wearing the 2-stripes of a full corporal (or perhaps acting corporal, it could be either), and that implies that he was combed out from the ASC into the infantry.

Now that you mention it, I do seem to remember finding some paper work stating his rank as corporal. Seems like I need another trip to my grandmothers house! 

 

Edit:

 

Just remembered I scanned in his WW1 will which states he was in 1/5 Essex regiment (As woodnbits said)

Edited 3 October , 2021 by Huttles94

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Huttles94 said:

Now that you mention it, I do seem to remember finding some paper work stating his rank as corporal. Seems like I need another trip to my grandmothers house! 

But in the photos that might be later still (as his appearance seems older) he’s back to Private soldier again with no stripes.  There’s nothing really unusual in that, it was fairly common to be given one, or sometimes even two stripes temporarily during the war.

Edited 3 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Huttles94]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

But in the photos that might be later still (as his appearance seems older) he’s back to Private soldier again with no stripes.

Right, so he was only a corporal for a short period (acting corporal as you said) 

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, Huttles94 said:

Right, so he was only a corporal for a short period (acting corporal as you said) 

It would seem so, yes.  He might also have “reverted voluntarily”, as some men did not like the extra responsibility and fact that it could separate them socially from their mates.

The fellow in the middle by the tents is the same man on the right in the group stood in front of the railings.  He appears to have been in the Leicestershire Regiment.

The group of three with the central fellow seated on a stool seems to be late in the war, as the seated man, a signaller going by his cloth armlet on the left upper arm, has three overseas service chevrons on his right cuff and a single good conduct badge (inverted stripe) on his left cuff.  Altogether that suggests the image was most likely taken some time in 1918.

Your documentation shows that he was in the 14th Training Reserve (TR) Battalion before being drafted to a battalion overseas.  The photo of the group wearing the Wolseley pattern sun helmets is probably a shot of the draft intended for the Middle East before they departed.  They had probably only recently been issued the helmets.  The 14th TR were at Brocton and had originally been formed from the 14th (Reserve) Battalion of the Manchester Regiment before all regimental reserve battalions were merged into a single, overarching Training Reserve organisation, with numbered battalions, in August 1916.  It was only by coincidence that the battalion number of the 14th did not change, most others did once placed in the new TR.  In May 1917 the 14th TR’s unit title changed again, and it was renamed as the “278th Graduated Battalion”.

Edited 3 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Huttles94 said:

Aye I have been told that before. Its odd since his medal and diary say he served in the essex regiment. Could he have joined one and then sent to another regiment? 

Sorry, I omitted to answer your latter question, which I didn’t spot previously.  Yes, I think he probably enlisted initially with the ASC but then very quickly moved across to the infantry.  This was not uncommon, especially from 1916 onward.

Edited 3 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

Apart from mentioning a territorial unit seems I was way off the mark.

A few points. Perhaps others will know.

Medal Roll does give A/Cpl. I assume Pte. is on the medals.

The photo of him as ASC suggest his number was 36705. Surely he had a previous number not recorded so far?

36705 is not a territorial number, did this come from the TR battalion?

The other post shows a triangular patch. Vertical split, half black half red. Suggested as 11th Battalion Essex and possibly the same as the insignia on the Wolseley in Egypt.

The FMP medical record should give length of service and of field service.

TEW

[Woodnbits]

 

5 minutes ago, TEW said:

 

The FMP medical record should give length of service and of field service.

Completed years of service 11/12

Completed months with Field Force 5/12

Tim

[Huttles94]

37 minutes ago, TEW said:

Apart from mentioning a territorial unit seems I was way off the mark.

A few points. Perhaps others will know.

Medal Roll does give A/Cpl. I assume Pte. is on the medals.

The photo of him as ASC suggest his number was 36705. Surely he had a previous number not recorded so far?

36705 is not a territorial number, did this come from the TR battalion?

The other post shows a triangular patch. Vertical split, half black half red. Suggested as 11th Battalion Essex and possibly the same as the insignia on the Wolseley in Egypt.

The FMP medical record should give length of service and of field service.

TEW

I am not 100% sure if the patch is his. Though it was in a box with his other items (medals, diary ect). 

36705 is the number on his medals (Which state 36705 pte F Hutley Essex regiment).

Granted there is not a lot of information on him and like many veterans, he never talked about the war to my grandfather. 

But thank you all for the information you have provided, kind of like a jigsaw puzzle, putting together the tiny bits and pieces of information as I go along.

 

 

Edited 4 October , 2021 by Huttles94

[FROGSMILE]

The 1/5th (Territorial Force) Battalion had been with the MEF since 1915 and at the time that Hutley joined them the battalion were in the Alexandria area as part of 161st Infantry Brigade of 54th (East Anglian) Division, which fits with the cap badges we’ve seen.  The fact that in so many of the photos there appear to be a range of badges, suggests he might have been attached to a Brigade or even Divisional specialist sub-unit manned by personnel from all units.

“During the First Battle of Gaza, on 26 March 1917, the 161st Brigade and divisional artillery were in reserve while the 53rd (Welsh) Division carried out the main attack. These reserves were committed as the battle progressed resulting in the British gaining a foothold in the Turkish defences but the British commander called off the attack as night fell. In the Second Battle of Gaza, the 4th and 5th Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment sustained 75 per cent casualties (about 1,200 men).   It took part in the successful Third Battle of Gaza as part of XXI Corps led by General Bulfin, and by the end of 1917 General Allenby's forces had taken Jerusalem.  In September 1918 the division took part in the Battle of Megiddo.”

NB.  Looking at the architectural infrastructure detail apparent in the first tranche of photos that you posted it looks to me like Alexandria itself, which would add greater probability that he was attached to Divisional HQ.  The photo of an apparent female close up is almost certainly a European soldier who’s donned the robe as a prank.  They were clearly accommodated for that period in the large prepossessing building of several storeys with flag flying atop, and in one photo their relatively small group is formed up being inspected by an officer outside it.  One shot shows their beds with mosquito netting draped on top of a frame with rifles and Wolseley helmets alongside. In another shot they are stood on the large, open verandah on the upper floor outside their sleeping area.

 

Edited 4 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

There is an online initiative called “The Wartime Memories Project” that tries to capture images and stories like that of your grandfather.  There is a little on 1/4th Essex who were also in 54th Div, but not so much on 1/5th Essex.  Perhaps you might consider donating copies of your images there, it seems a good way to commemorate:

1/4th Essex:  https://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=572

1/5th Essex: https://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=577

All Essex Battalions: https://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/regiment.php?pid=17613

 

 

Edited 4 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Woodnbits]

From reading his diary my interpretation is that he was already in the Essex Regiment when he left the UK, couldn’t see a mention of a transfer of Regiments.

06/05/1917 Left Brocton Camp, Staffs at 10 o’clock en route for Egypt.

Via France and Malta

31/05/1917 Arrived Alexandria

09/06/1917 Left Rest camp Mustapha

11/09/1917 Arr Belah Camp and put in No 2 Platoon A Coy.

 

Unfortunately the War Diary for the 1/5th Essex Reg hasn’t been digitised.

Tim

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/10/2021 at 15:27, Woodnbits said:

From reading his diary my interpretation is that he was already in the Essex Regiment when he left the UK, couldn’t see a mention of a transfer of Regiments.

06/05/1917 Left Brocton Camp, Staffs at 10 o’clock en route for Egypt.

Via France and Malta

31/05/1917 Arrived Alexandria

09/06/1917 Left Rest camp Mustapha

11/09/1917 Arr Belah Camp and put in No 2 Platoon A Coy.

 

Unfortunately the War Diary for the 1/5th Essex Reg hasn’t been digitised.

Tim

It’s quite possible that he was already in the Essex Regiment when he left Britain to deploy.  It’s his service previously (he’s clearly wearing ASC insignia) that’s in question.  Generally Medal index cards only record the units served with overseas, so if his service record has not survived you won’t have any record of who he enlisted with initially.  This is quite a common scenario because of the bombed Records storage facility in WW2.

Edited 5 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Huttles94]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s quite possible that he was already in the Essex Regiment when he left Britain to deploy.  It’s his service previously (he’s clearly wearing ASC insignia) that’s in question.  Generally Medal index cards only record the units served with overseas, so if his service record has not survived you won’t have any record of who he enlisted with initially.  This is quite a common scenario because of the bombed Records storage facility in WW2.

That very well might be true. In fact my Grandfather always said he served the full duration of the war. Now I thought he only served from 1917 due to his diary. Dont know why it never occurred to me that he (Frank) only started to keep a diary after he knew he was being shipped out. 

Looks like he very much served first in the ASC then was transferred to the Essex Regiment. 

But as you say, since records were destroyed during WW2, it very well maybe we will never know the full story.

Alas, I have now learned more about my Great Grandfather and his time during the war. I am still on with clearing my Grandfathers office and who knows what I may find.

Thank you