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Remembered Today:

Which V Corps Machine Gun Battalion did this man serve with


oxlade134

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I have been researching an extended family member Acting Sergeant Oliver Arthur Palmer 33226 Machine Gun Corps, and wasnt getting to far until  I came across the photo of him and the some medals that I could say he was with one of the Machine Gun Battalions of V Corps.

In this photo in uniform is the front and back of a cross country medal he won in 1919 it says "First Man Home V Corps Cross Country Championships 1919"

My question for forum members is their any V Corps newsletter or diary that might cover this 1919 event as it might identify the MGC Battalion he was with. Also he was from Essex and it appears he joined up in 1916 and served only with the MGC Corps does that and his number provide any clue ?

PALMER Oliver Arthur - 1895-1966 with some cross country medals.jpg

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MGC men are pretty hard to tie down for various reasons.  5 Corps would have had 3 or 4 divisions under it and each Div would have had a MGC Bn.  The battalions  were formed in early 1918 from the various MG companies.   Your best bet might be the 5 Corps war diary as sporting events often feature well in terms of naming men?  if not then the 3 or 4 MGC Bn  war diaries for the period. All are free from the NA. It being 1919 some may well have disbanded so this may ease or confuse. 

His number will be able to tell us accurately when he joined but men were often sent piecemeal  from Grantham (the training depot) to a wide range of MGC units.  Men around  him may give a clue from the medal roll but that could be a red herring.   

Medal roll has him as demobbed on 21 May 1919 and as a Cpl but acting Sgt

Pinning down his unit will be tricky.

Edited by AndrewSid
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Possibility he enlisted with some other infantry unit , then transferred over to MGC (in the UK), hence his medal card and roll only show his MGC medal entitlement. Couple of casualties either side of him on the roll with fairly  close numbers  show up previous service  numbers in Soldiers Died records. 33249  Charles H. Hart got a Silver War Badge - his enlistment date is 14/08/1914 so obviously somewhere else before MGC existed, but did not serve overseas 1914-1915.

Unless he's mentioned somewhere, very difficult  to identify his unit. He'd be in an MGC Coy first  then from early 1918  in a Coy that was part of an MGC Battalion. On one of many public Ancestry family trees  there is the same photo of him, but dated 7th July 1917. There is also another photo of him in UK wearing what is likely Essex Regiment cap badge!

8a508f4a-ef1b-490e-a01a-7e085a42af31.jpg

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This old thread suggests a potential transfer date to MGC of late April/early May 1916.

He was mentioned in an Aug 1916 Northern Command military athletics meeting at Gateshead where he came first in one of the 800 yd Heats. He is noted as 'Pte, Machine Gun Corps'.

Whether he was under training or had joined a battalion I cannot say, but you know he had not left for France before this date. 

He is on the Colchester Electoral Roll for 1918 so presumably the 'Absent Voters Lists' is not worth pursuit.

-not got you much further, I'm afraid.

Charlie

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Another thread on here details MGC service numbers.  From the below it seems he joined the MGC end  April 1916.  I have had a similar quest tracking a MGC great uncle .  His service  before the MGC remains unknown and I only have his MGC units because he won a DCM.  If that’s him in Essex regiment uniform its a huge win.  Doesn’t help with his MGC France service though. 

 

31841 - 14/04/1916

32658 - 25/04/1916 ( Posted on enlistment )

35136 - 09/05/1916

36106 - 13/05/1916

36309 - 13/05/1916

39445 - 29/02/1916

 

 

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Thanks for all your replies!

I think Charlie's extra photo and info about Oliver Palmer winning a Northern Command race in August 1916 does suggest volunteer Essex regiment first then onto  MGC in the Northern Command . While Oliver Palmer is not a uncommon name, the other evidence a V Corps cross country race medal for 1919 is consistent with the 1916 mention of him. So I'm inclined to believe he was with one of the MGC companies of Northern Command perhaps 236th MGC Coy and then one of the 4 Battalions of V Corps which were 17, 21, 33 and 38 Bns.  I have download the war diaries of these battalions and found nothing so far. Struggling to find V Corps  diary for 1919.

I don't think the Oliver Palmer on the electoral list in 1918 is this man more likely his dad who had the same name, thus he was likely in France, Flanders with a MGC Coy and then V Corps sometime after 1916 until sent home in 1919.

Looking at Northern Command in Aug 1916 (when he won the race) and the MGC companies in the Command it seems he was likely as suggested in training at Gateshead and may have joined 236th Machine Gun Company which joined the Northern Command in 17 July 1917, and then left to move into 17th Machine Gun Battalion 24 February 1918. 17th Bn MGc being one of the four Battalions of V Corps. Any one see anything wrong with this guess?

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I too couldn’t find a V Corps Diary.  Perhaps they don’t exist at that high a level.

I’m not sure how you can say he was in 236 MGC.  My understand (basic as it is) is that the depot was Grantham and the majority of training went on there.  The 200 series of MGC Coys were built in the UK and sent across as formed units to augment Divisions.  Many of the lower numbered Coys  were usually initially manned by the infantry and numbered after the respective Brigade they were in. They would need replacements from the MGC as time went on.

After our man join the MGC in late April 16 there is no real evidence to suggest what unit he joined?  What went on at Gateshead to push you in that direction?

the fact he was a good runner may still be strong indicator we can find something.

 

Edited by AndrewSid
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AndrewSid Im by no means sure about the 236th Coy.

However, the Northern Command I understand was the home base for the 236th Coy before it went to france with 17th Div. The Northern Command had hosted the races in which our man featured in Aug 1916. I've found newspaper articles for these championships run at Hartlepool (not Gatehead )but they they seemed just for Northern Command troops and not a national Army championship. In 1916 I don't know but wonder would the Army have been transporting men up to the North to run in a competition? I don't have much knowledge about the training of MGC ie was it exclusively at Belton?

 

If I'm wrong about this, then can we agree the most likely potential companies that he could have come from are listed below.

My thinking here is working back from the fact that we know he was with V Corps in 1919 then he was with either 17, 21 , 33 and 38 Battalions MGC and from that we can also say its likely he was  in a company that was re-designated a part of a battalion in 1918. 

Using the Long Long Trail page on Companies and Battalions of MGC then the possibilities are

No 17 Battalion the men came from either 236th , 50th, 51st and 52nd Coys

No 21 Battalion the men came from either 62nd, 64th, 110th and 237th Coys

No 33 Battalion the men came from either 19th , 98th, 100th and 248th Coys

No 38 Battalion the men came from either 114th, 115th and 176th

 

 

 

 

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Wo95/752/2 part one mentions the X country race 2/2/1919. Winner was 21 st Btn. MGC. Cup and medals also awarded up to fourth place.

TEW

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Found him.  21st Bn MGC.  A very very rare mention of an OR in a MGC diary..

Bn wound down the following month and disbanded end April after collapsing into a single Coy.

 

5EA59DF3-ACD5-4091-BEB9-8ECEC1646218.jpeg.f3800096825725feb7d73d748683e9d5.jpeg

Edited by AndrewSid
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14 minutes ago, Woodnbits said:

Possibilty that his service record is still held by the MOD. Do you have the same DOB?

image.png.5b1a3187b104727cb9d8f7cfac58acb7.png

Tim

 

Family trees have him as  born 7 JUL 1895 • Great Bentley, Essex, England, as does 1939 register.

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6 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Family trees have him as  born 7 JUL 1895 • Great Bentley, Essex, England, as does 1939 register.

Thanks.

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19 minutes ago, Woodnbits said:

Thanks.

That post war  service number also shows up on  Military Discharge Indexes - so must have re enlisted after the war. Possibly signed on again after he was discharged in 1919. For sure is him in the MOD records. With any luck his WW1 service file was rolled into his post war service file.  

palmer.jpg

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Oxlade,

Quite a jump forward today I’d say.  I think the option is there to apply for his service records at 30 quid and a wait.  That might give you his infantry background and MGC Coy prior to Bn.

My money would be on 237 Coy as a formed unit deploying from the UK but that’s purely a badly educated guess. 

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I can't find the topic but somewhere on forum there is one on the MOD records being moved to TNA to be released via Ancestry/Fold3/Findmypast.

MOD website is still open but say there is a 12 month backlog.

Not 100% sure which records will eventually be available online.

TEW

 

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Thanks for the responses I’m in New Zealand so hence lag in responding.  I have downloaded war diaries for 4 (V Corps) MGC battalions 17, 21 33 and 38 -yet to read them . Charlie’s find of championship race for Northern Command and the second photo  I believe are good clues and getting better sense of his timing for France etc.

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Thank you to all for excellent finds , I woke up this am in New Zealand to this great information and really appreciate your efforts on my behalf. The Forum for me is one of those gems on the internet, good polite people who share a common goal to respect those who served.  I share all my published pages with the Forum members they are at https://ww1.blencowe.one-name.net/  password ww1. There are over 400 men and women who are included and cover British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand and American Blencowes and kin . Note Oliver A Palmer's page is still in construction and these facts shared with me today not yet updated. Thanks again!

Note on The Blencowe name (various spellings) website

This website is part of the UK One Name Guild studies of our family name , Adam de Blencow was the first Blencowe, he was a 14th Century soldier awarded his title and land by Edward III and named after  the village of Blencow in Cumberland Edward  .

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To save on the reading I think 33 Division had left V Corps by then.

TEW

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Now we know he is from the 21st MGC Bn.  A look at the Coys that formed the Bn before Feb 1918 would be a good first look.  Its unlikely he will be mentioned but you never know.  It will certainly detail the actions they were in in support of the wider Division.

When he came to France will be difficult to pin down but you should be able to see how each MG Coy arrived in France and was subsequently reinforced.  France late 1916 early 1917 seems logical following training with the MGC.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Today I received the Pay book and some other Memorabilia for Oliver A Palmer which may help fill in the years before he went overseas according to pay book Sept/Oct 1917. The paybook scans have to be reduced before loading but it does tells us he  attested  8 Aug 1914 as New Army . A photo in the pay book pouch establishes that Oliver was an outstanding athlete throughout the war this photo marked 1925 says 1 mile race 8th Essex regiment.

My question is if he was New Army was there an 8th Essex Regiment or was this one of the Territorial Cyclists Bn's? Look at my 1st photo of Oliver in Essex uniform posted 27 Sept. there is bicycle in this photo, is it a clue?

1519979403_PALMEROliverA.milerace(8thbattalionessexregement)1915(foundinpaybook).jpg.781935d8305b7f9e091d2c47f05081c3.jpg

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The paybook and pouch contents. Confirms attest date,Essex Regiment service and Act Srgt 21st Bn MGC on discharge.  The photo is of Essex Regiment December 1914,  Oliver Palmer (the runner) with scarf and of course a ciggie:)2104633868_PALMERO.A.(foundinpaybook)withscarf.OutpostdutyDec.1914writtenonreverseside-postcardphotounknownpub..jpg.51b7ced7fa6b2f73ed47309bca6bf545.jpg1637584479_PALMERO.A.-soldiersactiveservicepaybookpg.23(1).jpg.13ad229a6485a42a4d194ec29cabe0c4.jpg1377876962_PALMERO.A.-soldiersactiveservicepaybookpg.1617-lastleafwithnotes..jpg.fc8131fc14d7a1f092c1454b4b7eac0d.jpg1723773372_PALMERO.A.-soldiersactiveservicepaybookpg_1415.jpg.67ecc5f6755e94ffd3963c8e6d469205.jpg781003021_PALMERO.A.-soldiersactiveservicepaybookpg_1213.jpg.7d8fe63ac9d4f7c196398be3cf15f192.jpg806666328_PALMERO.A.-soldiersactiveservicepaybookpg_1011.jpg.260ff729e43d1c1136be3058ab941a7c.jpg1429502913_PALMERO.A.-soldiersactiveservicepaybookpg_89.jpg.9905e62ca264f23b7b07c51695716342.jpg918993916_PALMERO.A.-soldiersactiveservicepaybookpg_67.jpg.dd2e1e428e05f1d99988e167b4e673f5.jpg1995776314_PALMERO.A.-pouchcontentitem(d)-unknowncode.jpg.71f8b64515cf9426b9f7678cfce7ac7f.jpg1796593141_PALMERO.A.-soldiersactiveservicepaybookpg_45.jpg.adeea5adfcad1d5bf517cf5a6672b771.jpg1121980340_PALMERO.A.-pouchcontentitem(c)-SoldiersDemoblizationAccount.jpg.6b224f393c108c7ed18f122f86bf103f.jpg290232536_PALMERO.A.-pouchcontentitem(b)-BattalionordersNo.272-18february1919.jpg.13adc960bf21cb0879eaf9bb82a24b94.jpg191937720_PALMERO.A.-pouchcontentitem(a)-rationbookdatedreverseside17-6-19colchester.jpg.ceef0095490abce706991985a6e838ce.jpg

Edited by oxlade134
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10 hours ago, oxlade134 said:

The paybook and pouch contents. Confirms attest date,Essex Regiment service and Act Srgt 21st Bn MGC on discharge.  The photo is of Essex Regiment December 1914,  Oliver Palmer (the runner) with scarf and of course a ciggie:)2104633868_PALMERO.A.(foundinpaybook)withscarf.OutpostdutyDec.1914writtenonreverseside-postcardphotounknownpub..jpg.51b7ced7fa6b2f73ed47309bca6bf545.jpg

The group photo indicates he was in a Territorial Force battalion of the Essex Regiment.  Several of the men are wearing Imperial Service tablets above their chest pockets.  It’s a cracking set of documents showing his pay parades, his qualifications, promotions, a typical example of ‘routine’ Battalion Orders in the field that were usually kept brief and typically focused on duty forecasts and sport.  There’s even a page where he’s practised his signals and written down the 4-letter telegraph code for the units in his Division.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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