1921 Census (E&W*) - some info. on updates etc. [NOT SEARCH QUERIES]

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

B-hell! The site has dropped me [I went left before you replied] and I can't now get it - will I have to repay/pay further?

M

 

Try the 'My Records' option at the top of the screen.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Try the 'My Records' option at the top of the screen.

Not sure about that but found it in the filmstrip image / arrow to the right

It appears you get two images - the front and rear of the form [the second/right image gives you the address :-)]

M

Edit: So far as error corrections the image has a "Report image error" button at the top [an exclamation in triangle] but it appears to only apply to the image [so would presume/hope the same would apply once one had purchased a transcription - which is where I came in today - but seems only once you have paid!]

Edited 6 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
edit

[mandy hall]

This is from FMP about members of the armed forces in the census.  If they were in Scotland, they will not show up, you will have to wait for the Scottish Census to be released, later in the year I believe.

The second to last paragraph will interest you @ss002d6252

From FMP

The British armed forces are well covered by the 1921 Census. This includes the Army, the Royal Air Force (formed in 1918) and the Royal Navy (including the Royal Marines). 

A special section of the 1921 Census is devoted to the armed forces overseas. There are 35 pieces (volumes) for the Army overseas, 11 pieces for the Royal Navy and one piece for the Royal Air Force. Those for the Army and the Navy are grouped geographically. For instance, there are nine pieces for the Army in Ireland (right across the island of Ireland), and two for the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean. There are pieces covering the British Army in India (RG 15/28116 to 28124 inclusive), the Army of Occupation in Constantinople (RG 15/28110), the British Army of the Rhine in Germany (RG 15/28138) and the peace-keeping British Upper Silesian Force (RG 15/28139). The extensive presence in the Middle-east, especially Mesopotamia (mostly modern Iraq) and Palestine, is also reflected in the census returns.

A table giving details of the armed forces overseas pieces can be accessed from the Useful Links & resources bar on the right-hand side of this page.

The Army presence in Ireland is particularly extensive, as suggested by the fact that it fills nine whole volumes (pieces RG 15/28125 to 28133 inclusive). It should be borne in mind that the Irish War of Independence was ongoing and in fact the truce was not signed until 11th July 1921, three weeks after census night. This means that you may find British Army units at unexpected locations across Ireland as well as at the large barracks and camps such as the Curragh.

It is possible to search these overseas volumes exclusively if you know or suspect that an ancestor was serving abroad with the forces in the summer of 1921. To do so, select Armed Forces Overseas from the Country dropdown on the advanced search screen. However, do not forget the armed services which were in England & Wales at the time of the census. You will find many soldiers in army barracks, for example, across the country, sailors aboard ships in home ports, and airmen at their bases. 

Note that the Army Reserve had been mobilised in April 1921 during the state of emergency declared by Lloyd George. At the same time, a new Defence Force was formed, in which men enlisted for 90 days’ emergency service – which period would extend beyond the taking of the census on 19th June 1921. Defence Force units may be found in various locations, including drill halls and army camps and hutments.

All armed forces establishments are included. This includes temporary camps, training sites, military hospitals, detention barracks and married quarters.

The main omission is the armed forces from all three services which were stationed in Scotland, or at sea in Scottish waters, in June 1921. These would have been enumerated in the 1921 Census of Scotland and therefore do not appear in the 1921 Census of England & Wales. You should look for such service personnel in the 1921 Census of Scotland.

The armed forces had special census returns (schedules) which carry the code NM (assumed to stand for “naval and military”). The NM schedule was used both within the country and overseas. Two types of NM schedule were printed, one for domestic use within England & Wales and one for service overseas. There are several page types within each NM form. The main part of the return deals, of course, with serving officers and other ranks or ratings. However, there is often a section headed the “Return of all persons OTHER than serving officers and other ranks or ratings” – in other words, civilians, including wives and family. Note that the wives and children are therefore on different pages and not linked to the servicemen to whom they are related.

The NM form is broadly similar to the regular census schedules completed by householders all around the country. However, there are some differences. Firstly, the Relationship to Head column is omitted in the main section of the return, as of course officers and men are usually not related to one another; however, this column does appear in the “OTHER” section in which it is relevant. Secondly, the schedule records details of rank or rating and the branch or arm of the service (whereas the normal household return asks for occupation and employment details). Thirdly, there is a column for Language Spoken, which specifically enquires after Gaelic or Welsh.

There appears to have been no explicit instruction on how service personnel should be ordered on a census return. However, generally speaking, as is the custom in the forces, officers and men are listed by rank and, within those of equal rank, by seniority (length of service not age). Other than that, men may be arranged by company or other grouping, or (in the case of other ranks) simply alphabetically by surname.

Note that the NM form does not ask for service number although in a few cases a keen senior NCO has included this extra detail, which is a wonderful bonus for researchers.

Three Gibraltar 1921 Census household schedules were used in lieu of an NM schedule for the crew of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary “Bacchus”, a stores ship which had docked in Gibraltar for three days. The return was rightly rejected by the Registrar of Births in Gibraltar and forwarded, via H.M. Dockyard in Gibraltar, to the Census Office in London. This curious adapted return can be found in piece RG 15/28151.

Veterans. The 1921 Census was, of course, undertaken soon after the end of the Great War. It is therefore replete with ex-service personnel. There are many army pensioners, for instance, and disabled ex-servicemen – some of whom used the vehicle of their census schedule to bemoan their fate, especially when unemployed or living in constrained circumstances in the “land fit for heroes” – and an increase in both widows and orphans. Interesting returns include ED 17 in piece RG 15/3868 for the Queen’s Hospital for Facial Injuries in Sidcup, ED 25 in piece RG 15/3110 for Queen Mary's Convalescent Centre in Epsom, ED 42 in piece RG 15/631 for St Dunstan’s Hostel for Blinded Soldiers & Sailors, and ED 77 in piece RG 15/524 for the Y.M.C.A. Hostel for Servicemen. There are many Ministry of Pensions Hospitals, such as the Ministry of Pensions Special Surgical Hospital (ED 42 in piece RG 15/245) and the Ministry of Pensions Hospital in Knotty Ash (ED 51 in piece RG 15/17893). The 1921 Census is therefore a great resource for those researching surviving veterans of the Great War, as well as those still actively serving in the armed forces in summer 1921.

A selection of pieces of relevance to armed forces research are shown in the England & Wales institution tables, which can be accessed from the Useful Links & resources bar on the right-hand side of this page. These tables are arranged by type or theme. Those of special interest to military historians include the tables for army & navy, Ministry of Pensions Hospitals, nautical training and Royal Air Force.

[Matlock1418]

48 minutes ago, mandy hall said:

Veterans. The 1921 Census was, of course, undertaken soon after the end of the Great War. It is therefore replete with ex-service personnel. There are many army pensioners, for instance, and disabled ex-servicemen – some of whom used the vehicle of their census schedule to bemoan their fate, especially when unemployed or living in constrained circumstances in the “land fit for heroes” – and an increase in both widows and orphans. Interesting returns include ED 17 in piece RG 15/3868 for the Queen’s Hospital for Facial Injuries in Sidcup, ED 25 in piece RG 15/3110 for Queen Mary's Convalescent Centre in Epsom, ED 42 in piece RG 15/631 for St Dunstan’s Hostel for Blinded Soldiers & Sailors, and ED 77 in piece RG 15/524 for the Y.M.C.A. Hostel for Servicemen. There are many Ministry of Pensions Hospitals, such as the Ministry of Pensions Special Surgical Hospital (ED 42 in piece RG 15/245) and the Ministry of Pensions Hospital in Knotty Ash (ED 51 in piece RG 15/17893). The 1921 Census is therefore a great resource for those researching surviving veterans of the Great War, as well as those still actively serving in the armed forces in summer 1921.

Yes, that bemoaning by veterans about their situation, in a land fit for heroes, has been highlighted elsewhere on the web [e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59879470  ] - some pretty pithy and bitter comments added to the Census - very heart rending

M

Edited 6 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
addition

[charlie962]

Some very useful tips.thanks.

Remember the release of 1939 Register? V high initial pricing to reap payback from the 'early adopters' then calmed down after a year (was it?) and more reasonable prices. How long is FMPs exclusivity?

Charlie

[Margaretnolan]

3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

He's there, right next to Jones...

I haven't done a proper look at any names yet,

Craig

From Cardiganshire or is that Carmarthenshire…

Margaret

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, mandy hall said:

This is from FMP about members of the armed forces in the census.  If they were in Scotland, they will not show up, you will have to wait for the Scottish Census to be released, later in the year I believe.

The second to last paragraph will interest you @ss002d6252

From FMP

The British armed forces are well covered by the 1921 Census. This includes the Army, the Royal Air Force (formed in 1918) and the Royal Navy (including the Royal Marines). 

A special section of the 1921 Census is devoted to the armed forces overseas. There are 35 pieces (volumes) for the Army overseas, 11 pieces for the Royal Navy and one piece for the Royal Air Force. Those for the Army and the Navy are grouped geographically. For instance, there are nine pieces for the Army in Ireland (right across the island of Ireland), and two for the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean. There are pieces covering the British Army in India (RG 15/28116 to 28124 inclusive), the Army of Occupation in Constantinople (RG 15/28110), the British Army of the Rhine in Germany (RG 15/28138) and the peace-keeping British Upper Silesian Force (RG 15/28139). The extensive presence in the Middle-east, especially Mesopotamia (mostly modern Iraq) and Palestine, is also reflected in the census returns.

A table giving details of the armed forces overseas pieces can be accessed from the Useful Links & resources bar on the right-hand side of this page.

The Army presence in Ireland is particularly extensive, as suggested by the fact that it fills nine whole volumes (pieces RG 15/28125 to 28133 inclusive). It should be borne in mind that the Irish War of Independence was ongoing and in fact the truce was not signed until 11th July 1921, three weeks after census night. This means that you may find British Army units at unexpected locations across Ireland as well as at the large barracks and camps such as the Curragh.

It is possible to search these overseas volumes exclusively if you know or suspect that an ancestor was serving abroad with the forces in the summer of 1921. To do so, select Armed Forces Overseas from the Country dropdown on the advanced search screen. However, do not forget the armed services which were in England & Wales at the time of the census. You will find many soldiers in army barracks, for example, across the country, sailors aboard ships in home ports, and airmen at their bases. 

Note that the Army Reserve had been mobilised in April 1921 during the state of emergency declared by Lloyd George. At the same time, a new Defence Force was formed, in which men enlisted for 90 days’ emergency service – which period would extend beyond the taking of the census on 19th June 1921. Defence Force units may be found in various locations, including drill halls and army camps and hutments.

All armed forces establishments are included. This includes temporary camps, training sites, military hospitals, detention barracks and married quarters.

The main omission is the armed forces from all three services which were stationed in Scotland, or at sea in Scottish waters, in June 1921. These would have been enumerated in the 1921 Census of Scotland and therefore do not appear in the 1921 Census of England & Wales. You should look for such service personnel in the 1921 Census of Scotland.

The armed forces had special census returns (schedules) which carry the code NM (assumed to stand for “naval and military”). The NM schedule was used both within the country and overseas. Two types of NM schedule were printed, one for domestic use within England & Wales and one for service overseas. There are several page types within each NM form. The main part of the return deals, of course, with serving officers and other ranks or ratings. However, there is often a section headed the “Return of all persons OTHER than serving officers and other ranks or ratings” – in other words, civilians, including wives and family. Note that the wives and children are therefore on different pages and not linked to the servicemen to whom they are related.

The NM form is broadly similar to the regular census schedules completed by householders all around the country. However, there are some differences. Firstly, the Relationship to Head column is omitted in the main section of the return, as of course officers and men are usually not related to one another; however, this column does appear in the “OTHER” section in which it is relevant. Secondly, the schedule records details of rank or rating and the branch or arm of the service (whereas the normal household return asks for occupation and employment details). Thirdly, there is a column for Language Spoken, which specifically enquires after Gaelic or Welsh.

There appears to have been no explicit instruction on how service personnel should be ordered on a census return. However, generally speaking, as is the custom in the forces, officers and men are listed by rank and, within those of equal rank, by seniority (length of service not age). Other than that, men may be arranged by company or other grouping, or (in the case of other ranks) simply alphabetically by surname.

Note that the NM form does not ask for service number although in a few cases a keen senior NCO has included this extra detail, which is a wonderful bonus for researchers.

Three Gibraltar 1921 Census household schedules were used in lieu of an NM schedule for the crew of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary “Bacchus”, a stores ship which had docked in Gibraltar for three days. The return was rightly rejected by the Registrar of Births in Gibraltar and forwarded, via H.M. Dockyard in Gibraltar, to the Census Office in London. This curious adapted return can be found in piece RG 15/28151.

Veterans. The 1921 Census was, of course, undertaken soon after the end of the Great War. It is therefore replete with ex-service personnel. There are many army pensioners, for instance, and disabled ex-servicemen – some of whom used the vehicle of their census schedule to bemoan their fate, especially when unemployed or living in constrained circumstances in the “land fit for heroes” – and an increase in both widows and orphans. Interesting returns include ED 17 in piece RG 15/3868 for the Queen’s Hospital for Facial Injuries in Sidcup, ED 25 in piece RG 15/3110 for Queen Mary's Convalescent Centre in Epsom, ED 42 in piece RG 15/631 for St Dunstan’s Hostel for Blinded Soldiers & Sailors, and ED 77 in piece RG 15/524 for the Y.M.C.A. Hostel for Servicemen. There are many Ministry of Pensions Hospitals, such as the Ministry of Pensions Special Surgical Hospital (ED 42 in piece RG 15/245) and the Ministry of Pensions Hospital in Knotty Ash (ED 51 in piece RG 15/17893). The 1921 Census is therefore a great resource for those researching surviving veterans of the Great War, as well as those still actively serving in the armed forces in summer 1921.

A selection of pieces of relevance to armed forces research are shown in the England & Wales institution tables, which can be accessed from the Useful Links & resources bar on the right-hand side of this page. These tables are arranged by type or theme. Those of special interest to military historians include the tables for army & navy, Ministry of Pensions Hospitals, nautical training and Royal Air Force.

Very interesting, Thank you.

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Margaretnolan said:

From Cardiganshire or is that Carmarthenshire…

Margaret

Cardiganshire.

(But it depends  on how the indexing has been done this  time. In the 1911 Censuses,  tens (hundreds?) of thousands  of people were indexed as living in the wrong county). This David Thomas Davies was however correctly indexed ss Cardiganshire, despite having a postal address that included Llanybydder which straddles the county line, but is generally deemed to be mostly in Carmarthenshire.

[RobertBr]

The FMP Website is offering one months 'Prime' membership for £16.99 which includes 'discounted' access to the 1921 Census. However is does not specify what the discounts are!

Bob

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, RobertBr said:

The FMP Website is offering one months 'Prime' membership for £16.99 which includes 'discounted' access to the 1921 Census. However is does not specify what the discounts are!

Bob

I think the discount offered to subscribers was 20%.

Craig

[Alan24]

12 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

I think the discount offered to subscribers was 20%.

Craig

10% for the Pro Subscription. 

£3.15 instead of £3.50

Edited 6 January , 2022 by Alan24

[IPT]

I bought one month basic at £9.99, so that I could then buy my four grandparents' census returns for £3.50 each.

I won't be going back until things calm down.

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

10% for the Pro Subscription. 

£3.15 instead of £3.50

Even worse !

Craig

[Coldstreamer]

I’m not surprised it hasnt crashed at these prices - is it being used much ?

ive used it to just see where people are living (the area not specific) which is free

[Alan24]

24 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said:

ive used it to just see where people are living (the area not specific)

Apparently you don't get individual address just town and parish.

Edit: apparently address on another page. Need to have another look.

Edited 6 January , 2022 by Alan24

[Coldstreamer]

That’s what I was implying. Every bit of info is useful 

[Matlock1418]

Re: Addresses.  Be warned ...

I was searching for an address in a hamlet - according to FMP Chat all addresses are apparently exactly the same there [the hamlet's name - no numbers or property names] :-(

Could get expensive to get them all to try to eliminate some using the 1911 census [though that is not much better!]

Ahh, days gone by and the simplicity of life in the country - Live in a hamlet and you were commonly largely known by your name, not property address

Still very similar here to this day! Mention an address today and you easily end up with "Oh = Mr/Mrs/Ms Xxxxxxxxx".  At least the postie and delivery drivers use fuller addresses with a postcode now [but even now the latter characters struggle with property names - they knock on my door for directions with rather irritating regularity!] - still few numbers here!

Don't know how we get round those omissions from 100 years ago. :-/

M

Edited 6 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

37 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said:

I’m not surprised it hasnt crashed at these prices - is it being used much ?

I think the reference was aimed at the Correction facility - but actually it seems behind the paywall so perhaps not so likely either way!

M

Edited 6 January , 2022 by Matlock1418

[mandy hall]

Something that is useful and I don’t think anyone else has mentioned, when you go to purchase the census image, it shows the forenames of some of the other members of the household and gives a figure of how many others are in the household.  Helps to know you have the right family, if you know, who you are expecting to be their.

You don’t have to go ahead with the purchase to see this information.

Mandy

[MaureenE]

5 hours ago, petwes said:

Will soldiers serving in India be included? I have looked for one who was almost certainly there but he doesn't turn up anywhere.

Peter

The 1911 Census was "supposed" to include all British Army personnel in India, but there were certainly omissions, both for individual soldiers, and I suspect for regiments. I assume the 1921 census will include similar omissions.

If you check out The National Archives    Census catalogue  information for regiments in India, you should be able to determine whether there is any information for the regiment of the soldier you are interested in, or whether the whole regiment has been omitted. If an individual soldier is missing, perhaps there has been a transcription error.

Maureen

[MaureenE]

6 hours ago, mandy hall said:

This is from FMP about members of the armed forces in the census.  If they were in Scotland, they will not show up, you will have to wait for the Scottish Census to be released, later in the year I believe.

The second to last paragraph will interest you @ss002d6252

From FMP

The British armed forces are well covered by the 1921 Census. This includes the Army, the Royal Air Force (formed in 1918) and the Royal Navy (including the Royal Marines). 

A special section of the 1921 Census is devoted to the armed forces overseas. There are 35 pieces (volumes) for the Army overseas, 11 pieces for the Royal Navy and one piece for the Royal Air Force......

Is there a link /URL for this information, or was it sent by email?

Edit: Found it https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/1921-census-of-england-and-wales 

Scroll down to section at the bottom "Armed Forces"

For more details  "1921 Census- British armed forces overseas" https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/world-records/1921-census---british-armed-forces-overseas

Maureen

Edited 7 January , 2022 by MaureenE

[Jervis]

Searching (and spending a small fortune) the 1921 census on FMP I discovered there is a small hamlet called Dublin in Suffolk, England. While there are no more than a dozen dwellings at present, it was obviously a much bigger place in times past, as tens of thousands of people on the census claim to have been born there! 

Either that or FMP’s AI algorithms may need some human oversight from time to time 😁

[George Rayner]

7 minutes ago, Jervis said:

small hamlet called Dublin in Suffolk,

Just down the road from me...

George

[ilkley remembers]

According to the 'Times' this morning Fyndmypast have exclusive rights to the 1921 census for 3 years

[ss002d6252]

Just now, ilkley remembers said:

According to the 'Times' this morning Fyndmypast have exclusive rights to the 1921 census for 3 years

I wonder if that means they're going to keep the individual pricing for that long ?

Craig