Meaning of a blank medal card

[JMakoul]

Hello, thank you for any assistance. I am researching an officer from the 16th London Regiment.  He has a medal card, however it is blank in the columns next to each medal.  My understanding is that, if an officer was not deployed to the battlefield, he did not have a medal card?

He has a medal card and forces war shows him eligible for the British and Campaign medal. However his card is blank. A photo of his card is attached.  The London Regiment had three battalions, all were deployed.

His name was "W Satchell" 

Edited 21 September , 2021 by JMakoul

[jay dubaya]

I would suggest he had no qualifying service, I can’t find him on the medal rolls either. I don’t subscribe to FWR and so can’t comment on what they have

[Knotty]

Hi there

I’m also led to believe that Officers were not automatically sent campaign medals, they had to apply for them.

Im sure one of or medal experts will be along in a while to confirm my suspicions.

John

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, JMakoul said:

"W Satchell" 

A London Gazette search has a few entries for 1918 onwards that might perhaps be him = You may have much better perusal than a quick look of mine.

Check these out: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/notice?text="W+SATCHELL"&categorycode-all=all&noticetypes=&location-postcode-1=&location-distance-1=1&location-local-authority-1=&numberOfLocationSearches=1&start-publish-date=01%2F01%2F1914&end-publish-date=&edition=&london-issue=&edinburgh-issue=&belfast-issue=&sort-by=oldest-date&results-page-size=20

Perhaps did not have had time to go O/Seas ??

And/or Did he perhaps have any previous OR service? - you perhaps might find something under his potential OR number ???

:-) M

Edit: Knowing his forename would probably help us - Commissions as a 2nd Lt will be under full forename & surname whereas promotions and other entries often were as initial & surname only.

Edited 21 September , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[DavidOwen]

Based on the MIC it looks as if it is Walter Satchell https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C730536

[Matlock1418]

13 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

Based on the MIC it looks as if it is Walter Satchell https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C730536

 Here's his London Gazette for a 1917 commissioning https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30395/supplement/12140

War Office, 23rd November, 1917. TERRITORIAL FORCE. The undermentioned, from Officer Cadet units, to be 2nd Lts. 31st Oct. 1917: — INFANTRY ... Lond. R.— ... Walter Satchell.

:-) M

Edited 21 September , 2021 by Matlock1418
typo

[Knotty]

Hi Josh

As Matlock1418 has found that he features from 1917onwards, if you look at the closed thread I posted a couple of links to the National Archive deal index that refers to many “late”  entry combatants being excluded from receiving any campaign medals for various reasons, and also as an officer he would have needed to apply.

 

[JMakoul]

Thank you to everyone. He almost certainly would have been deployed in the field as a 2nd Lt.  if commissioned in October 1917?
is this a fair assumption? 

He was promoted post war to Lieutenant. 

Edited 21 September , 2021 by JMakoul
Add info

[TEW]

The NW/8 reference on his MIC shows that he did apply for the pair, surnames S-W

There is another card to 8028 W Satchell RA which simply says Comm, I'd take that as commissioned.

This card is also devoid of roll references but has an EF/9 reference plus an ef/4 reference.

EF/9 had two meanings, either an application form for officers only or a file of policy/eligibilty papers regarding units or individual cases.

The ef/4 is akin to the NW/8 application but for ordinary ranks surnames S-W, NB. Ef/4 should be for a 15 Star trio application.

I suspect, although it can't be proved that both MICs are the same man applying for medals, a pair as an officer and trio for ordinary rank.

If it is one man for both MICs looks more like no overseas service but trying to get some medals?

TEW

[PRC]

3 hours ago, JMakoul said:

He almost certainly would have been deployed in the field as a 2nd Lt.  if commissioned in October 1917?
is this a fair assumption? 

I usually find it takes a couple of months after a commission is gazetted before the information is reflected in the British Army Monthly list, so started with the February 1918 edition.

There is a Second Lieutenant W. Satchell with seniority from the 31st October 1917, (i.e. the date of his commissioning) who was shown on the strength of the 16th Reserve Battalion of the London Regiment. (see column 1595b). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/122968041

And on the November 1918 edition he is still shown as a Second Lieutenant on the strength of the 16th Reserve Battalion. (see column 1609e) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123107337

 So it may be that if you went through month by month you may find him posted to one of the battalions serving overseas and then posted back to the 16th Reserve - something that might happen if he was medically repatriated to the UK wounded or sick. Or he could have gone out in the last couple of months of the war and the Army List hadn't caught up.

But the most likely scenario is that he didn't serve overseas before the armistice. This is not that unusual.  There is another thread on the go at the moment trying to identify the names and fates of a group of officer cadets who were commissioned at the end of June 1917. While the identity of some of the signatures on a group picture have eluded us so far, I'd say about a quarter of the men who were commissioned had no subsequent overseas service.

Our parent site, the Long, Long Trail shows that as well as the 1/16th in France and the 2/16th in Egypt \ Palestine, there was a 16th Reserve Battalion, (formerly the 3/16th).

3/15th, 3/16th and 3/17th Battalions
Formed in early 1915 and moved to Richmond Park. Went in January 1916 to Winchester.
8 April 1916 : became 15th, 16th and 17th Reserve Bn. Moved to Wimbledon in December 1917 and 17th went on to Orpington in 1918. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

Cheers,
Peter

 

[chaz]

I would take what FWR says with a pinch of salt.

they "suggest" , they base this on dates and other "general" rules applicable. They suggest that a couple of my family members only qualified for the pair when they actually received a star as well. They suggest but dont research each individual case, it would take too much time and individual pages wheras a general approach means less possibility for errors and work for web designers.

 

the other thing with medal cards is that the backs are often a scan of a different card, when scanned originally Im told , they were only interested in the front so scanned thefronts and left an original scan of another card in place. when looking through multiple cards its possible to notice as different colours of front and back, infact, there were different designs of cards , slight different size,colour and layout combinations.

[rksimpson]

4 hours ago, chaz said:

the other thing with medal cards is that the backs are often a scan of a different card, when scanned originally Im told , they were only interested in the front so scanned thefronts and left an original scan of another card in place. when looking through multiple cards its possible to notice as different colours of front and back, infact, there were different designs of cards , slight different size,colour and layout combinations.

HI

Yes that is right, but only if the back has nothing on it, for those with writing on the back they scanned both sides, and that is what you see on Ancestry.

 

regards

 

Robert

[chaz]

10 hours ago, rksimpson said:

HI

Yes that is right, but only if the back has nothing on it, for those with writing on the back they scanned both sides, and that is what you see on Ancestry.

 

regards

 

Robert

I had heard to the contrary that when scanning originally took place the emphasis was on the front and not the back, that was posted from a member who scanned the cards.

[TEW]

There's been two different scannings. Initially for or by PRO who only scanned the front. Then WFA who also scanned the reverse if it showed anything, otherwise putting a generic blank reverse. These are the Ancestry ones.

TEW