Newly Commisioned Officer

[ZIL]

Would a newly commissioned 2nd Lt return to the unit he served with before being sent to Officer Cadet School?

regards Zil

[charlie962]

deleted

I think all Gunner officers commission from the ranks, whether already RA or coming from another arm, would be posted, upon commissioning, to a different Battery. I suspect that was the norm for all arms although it might be same Regiment but not Battalion? Particularly if passing through OCS.

Not sure about those commissioned 'in the field'.

charlie

Edited 19 September , 2021 by charlie962

[ianjonesncl]

3 hours ago, ZIL said:

Would a newly commissioned 2nd Lt return to the unit he served with before being sent to Officer Cadet School?

regards Zil

I think he would probably return to the same Regiment eg Northumberland Fusiliers, but a different battalion. 

[ZIL]

Thank you for the responses..it’s what I thought same regiment or battalion but a different unit.

appreciated Zil

[PRC]

4 hours ago, ZIL said:

Would a newly commissioned 2nd Lt return to the unit he served with before being sent to Officer Cadet School?

Are we talking pre-February 1916 or post? The later system would mean a man wasn't commissioned until he had been through an Officer Cadet Unit or the Royal Military College or the Royal Military Academy other than the odd honorary appointment for home service only units. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/training-to-be-a-soldier/officer-training-in-the-british-army-of-1914-1918/

A new entrant might technically be on the books of a unit and even may initially have reported to their depot before moving on (usually) very shortly to start his officers training. I think we've had a thread that asked a similar question as there was surviving correspondence from one part of the army chasing why the officer cadet hadn't yet been issued with his other ranks number.

A man already serving in the ranks and going for selection to be an officer would not only need the support of his C.O. but I believe would also normally be expected to find a sponsoring regiment (infantry) or corps, (cavalry) - not sure what the position was with other arms of the Army. If the man successfully passed the officer cadet course he would be commissioned into his sponsoring unit. That may not necessarily be a regiment he had served with in the ranks, but if it was then almost certainly he would not have gone back to his old infantry battalion(s) or cavalry regiment.

I assume you have a specific individual in mind so probably best to look at their circumstances - there are just too many possibilities to list them all.

Cheers,
Peter

[ZIL]

Thanks Peter…this is post 1916…it’s picked up from a previous thread regarding the RGA ,but you have confirmed that return to the the RGA because of previous experience etc but not the same battery.I have tried to establish where he went after commission  but to date no success.No records of any kind traced.

regards Zil

[Buffnut453]

38 minutes ago, ianjonesncl said:

I think he would probably return to the same Regiment eg Northumberland Fusiliers, but a different battalion. 

That was certainly the case for one of my relatives who was selected for commissioning from the 4th Bn, Rifle Brigade.  After commissioning, he was posted to the 2nd Bn, Rifle Brigade.  Clearly a statistically insignificant sample size but it does align with your statement.  To be honest, it makes perfect sense as there would likely be former enlisted mates in the old unit that would try to make things difficult for the newly-commissioned Lieutenant.  

[ZIL]

I agree entirely….difficult to enforce discipline with ‘old mates’!!!!|

regards Zil

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Like @Buffnut453 I have knowledge only of a statistically small sample, but of those few that I have come across two were in fact assigned as officers not only to their previous regiment, but actually to their previous battalion. 

One was a fellow pupil of my grandfather's at Bury Grammar School, Harold Downham, who shared digs with him in Port Sunlight immediately before the war. He was in the 1/7th LF both as a private and 2nd Lieutenant. An account of his life and war service has been compiled by @Mark Hone in Bury Grammar School's Role of Honour, and can be viewed by following this link Roll of Honour | Browse | Bury Grammar School (bgsarchive.co.uk)

The other is John Lucy, who enlisted in the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Rifles before the war, and in 1917 obtained a commission. He was offered a position with the Munster Fusiliers, which he says he found tempting, but writes in Chapter 50 of There's a Devil in the Drum:

I learned that if I did not go to them I would remain with my own regiment. This was a great honour at any time, and in war a commission in one's own regimant is a distinction.

So it was that a few pages later he writes:

 In July 1917 my orders for the front came through. I was ordered out with a draft due to leave at the end of the month for my old battalion ...

He describes arriving at battalion headquarters, an ex-German pillbox, where he had to wait for a guide:

I moved back to an unoccupied ammunition box near the pill-box door. On my way several standing men plucked my sleeve or grasped my hand - old friends, the regimental sergeant-major, a battalion runner, a clerk.

 

Edited 9 November , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[ZIL]

Thank you…great information..really appreciated.

Regards Zil

[RedCoat]

My Great Uncle was "Commissioned for service in the field", a battlefield commission as I understand it. 

He wasn't sent for officer training and remained in the same battalion of the DCLI. 

[ZIL]

Thank you…really appreciated.

Regards Zil

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

In the WD for 5 Royal Berks I recently found another example of an officer going to the same Battalion as the one in which he had served as an NCO. The entry for 24 January 1916 reads "2nd Lieut. Lloyd arrived. He had received his commission on 16th and was formerly a Sergeant in 'D' Coy". Only  a few months later there is a further entry on 4 June 1916 "2 Lieut. E.H. Lloyd struck off strength (to England)", which I thought at first might mean that the assignment to 5 Royal Berks had not been a success. However, quite by chance, the other day I came across another entry for this man in 2 BRC WD for 31 March 1918. The entry is "TIFEVISIT [meaning he was dangerously ill and that his next of kin were being invited to visit]  Captain E.H. Lloyd 5/R.Berks. GSW Abdomen", so in the interim he had been promoted to Captain. Sadly, he did not make it, and the next relevant entry in 2 BRC WD is to the effect that he died at 12.50pm on 2 April 1918. This is confirmed on the CWGC website, which gives his full name as Ernest Henry Lloyd, his age at death as 40, and his place of burial as St Sever Cemetery, Rouen. He was the son of Oliver and Mary Lloyd of Chichester.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

In the WD for 5 Royal Berks I recently found another example of an officer going to the same Battalion as the one in which he had served as an NCO. The entry for 24 January 1916 reads "2nd Lieut. Lloyd arrived. He had received his commission on 16th and was formerly a Sergeant in 'D' Coy". Only  a few months later there is a further entry on 4 June 1916 "2 Lieut. E.H. Lloyd struck off strength (to England)", which I thought at first might mean that the assignment to 5 Royal Berks had not been a success. However, quite by chance, the other day I came across another entry for this man in 2 BRC WD for 31 March 1918. The entry is "TIFEVISIT [meaning he was dangerously ill and that his next of kin were being invited to visit]  Captain E.H. Lloyd 5/R.Berks. GSW Abdomen", so in the interim he had been promoted to Captain. Sadly, he did not make it, and the next relevant entry in 2 BRC WD is to the effect that he died at 12.50pm on 2 April 1918. This is confirmed on the CWGC website, which gives his full name as Ernest Henry Lloyd, his age at death as 40, and his place of burial as St Sever Cemetery, Rouen. He was the son of Oliver and Mary Lloyd of Chichester.

This is a quite nuanced subject, because pre-WW1 norms in the regular army were that, with the sole exception[s] of the quarter-master (infantry) and quarter-master and riding-master (cavalry), an NCO commissioned from the ranks should not serve in the same regiment from whence he came.  This was largely to negate difficulty for him and avoid any chance of friction with former comrades and former superiors.  This attitude was more rarely seen in Territorial Force units pre-war because of the complications of tied geography and lesser frequency.  WW1, however, was of such a scale and duration that it turned matters to a significant degree, and with the advent of units that truly reflected contemporary society, in the form of war-raised ‘service battalions’, such niceties and prejudices seemed frivolous and (to the non regular units) quite absurd.  It became a matter of needs must and, if a battalion’s commanding officer rated a man sufficiently to recommend him for a commission, then he was usually more than happy to welcome that individual back as one of his subalterns, and a known quantity.  In any case the casualty rate for company officers was such as to render any lingering snobberies and prejudices as rather moot.

Edited 10 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenE]

An Australian account, available online

"And on to Messines" by Capt G D Mitchell 10th and 48th Battns AIF, page 6, (digital page 8) Reveille, July 1, 1936 (commenced in June 1936 issue). nla.gov.au. He was commissioned as an officer, in the field, with a group of other NCOs. Reveille was published by The Returned Services League of Australia New South Wales Branch

Mitchell was the author of Backs to the Wall 1937, published in a 2007 reprint edition as Backs to the Wall: A larrikin on the Western Front - Sample pages Google Books.

Perhaps the initial account may be included in Backs to the Wall

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, MaureenE said:

An Australian account, available online

"And on to Messines" by Capt G D Mitchell 10th and 48th Battns AIF, page 6, (digital page 8) Reveille, July 1, 1936 (commenced in June 1936 issue). nla.gov.au. He was commissioned as an officer, in the field, with a group of other NCOs. Reveille was published by The Returned Services League of Australia New South Wales Branch

Mitchell was the author of Backs to the Wall 1937, published in a 2007 reprint edition as Backs to the Wall: A larrikin on the Western Front - Sample pages Google Books.

Perhaps the initial account may be included in Backs to the Wall

Maureen

Thank you Maureen, as always your useful links have enhanced the context and made this a well rounded thread.

Edited 10 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

15 hours ago, MaureenE said:

An Australian account, available online

"And on to Messines" by Capt G D Mitchell 10th and 48th Battns AIF, page 6, (digital page 8) Reveille, July 1, 1936 (commenced in June 1936 issue). nla.gov.au. He was commissioned as an officer, in the field, with a group of other NCOs. 

A very readable, first -hand, account, thank you, Maureen.