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John Watt 13167 H.L.I.


Peterhastie
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John Watt has two war gratuity records 1 and 2 Both give different enlistment dates. Are they both the same type?

Looking at his contemporaries (SWB entries), his number gives an enlistment date of 14/09/1914.

His death is recorded as 20/10/1918, but he's not discharged till 12/02/1919.

His probate has him formerley H.L.I. and latterly Army Reserve. I can't find him C.W.G.C.

 

Edited by Peterhastie
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If he died at home of causes not connected to his army service, even while in the army reserve, he may not have been entitled to a CWGC headstone?

If he died at home and not on active service the army records may not have processed his death until Feb. 1919. Ancestry probate:

Screen Shot 2021-09-19 at 10.42.28.png

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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22 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

If he died at home of causes not connected to his army service, even while in the army reserve, he may not have been entitled to a CWGC headstone?

If he died at home and not on active service the army records may not have processed his death until Feb. 1919. Ancestry probate:

Screen Shot 2021-09-19 at 10.42.28.png

Would his discharge not have been dated retrospectively on the occasion of his death and his Reserve status include him in the C.W.G.C. Roll?

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With his death being so close to the end of WW1 there may have been an error. His probate was 1919.

Do you know what age he was at death? You could check Scotlandspeople for a death certificate - a lot of John Watt deaths in 1918.

I have found with similar cases that if he died at home and was buried in a family grave there would often be no CWGC headstone or entry.

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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1 hour ago, Peterhastie said:

John Watt has two war gratuity records 1 and 2 Both give different enlistment dates. Are they both the same type?

Looking at his contemporaries (SWB entries), his number gives an enlistment date of 14/09/1914.

His death is recorded as 20/10/1918, but he's not discharged till 12/02/1919.

His probate has him formerley H.L.I. and latterly Army Reserve. I can't find him C.W.G.C.

 

I see what you mean - one is marked as a type 1 war gratuity and 1 as a type 2.

The one marked as a Type 2 is an error correction (if you look at the blue note at the side it says 'recharge').

The Type 1 entry for the net £15 would appear to be the correct entry. £19 gross, for 40 months service.

This would give service from the month starting 24 June 1915, if there was continous service up to the date he died and he had died in service in Oct 1918.

Any period in which he spent on the army reserve would not be paid a war gratuity so that would shift the dates somewhat - if he enlisted Sep 1914 then you're looking at 40 months and an entry to the reserve around Jan 1918, if he had usual situaion of continous service from the date of enlistment. As he had only one service number across his service this is the most likely option.

The death certificate wasn't received at the MoP from the paymaster intil April 1919 so the date of Feb 1919 is likely the date the paymaster received the notification of the death and it's been wrongly noted as the date of discharge on the medal records.

image.png

https://www.fold3.com/image/669829628?terms=watt,13167


Craig

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1 hour ago, Peterhastie said:

the occasion of his death and his Reserve status include him in the C.W.G.C. Roll?

Admittedly not knowing the whole circumstances for this chap  ... No I don't think so - I think if on/in the Reserve [as a part-timer] death had to be on Active Duty [i.e. on duty] to be included.

Or, unless he was discharged with them [disease contracted or commencing while on active service; or disease aggravated by active service] I don't think a death [at home?] from Influenza & Lobar pneumonia would be likely to fit the bill for CWGC.

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
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Thank you all.

I couldn't quite get my head around it. I thought of an incorrect discharge date notation and it was good to get a second opinion. 

His enlistment date of Sept 1914 now seems plausible with a discharge to the reserve, Jan 1918 and his subsequent death.

The C.W.G.C. commemoration is another issue, considering the discharge date error, which will need to be taken up with them.

His entry of death, age 31? isn’t particularly helpful.

242231354_4945693928780520_1395491624522945331_n.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Peterhastie said:

His entry of death, age 31? isn’t particularly helpful.

It confirms his occ. ('tramway car motorman' as opposed to 'soldier') at the time of death and that he died in the 1918 flu epidemic.

He may have worked in Glasgow and may have been buried in a family grave in Aughenhalrig, Spey Bay.

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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7 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

It confirms his occ. ('tramway car motorman' as opposed to 'soldier') at the time of death and that he died in the 1918 flu epidemic.

He may have worked in Glasgow and may have been buried in a family grave in Aughenhalrig, Spey Bay.

Does this rule him out still being a reservist?

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30 minutes ago, Peterhastie said:

Does this rule him out still being a reservist?

I don't think it absolutely rules him out as being a on a Reserve [though I have not looked into his circumstances - at the date you have given, 12/02/1919, though I think this has been questioned/explained above, he could have been transferred to the Z Reserve, essentially demobbed] but him being on duty when he died in 1918 seems a bit unlikely.

I can't follow your 12/02/1919 link in the OP = Why do you think he was/Why was he transferred to a Reserve?

:-) M

Edit: Having had a look at Ancestry via a different route - the 1914-15 Star Medal Roll does say Disc 12.2.19 so suspect that was your source of Discharge - but where did you get Reserve from?  That Probate entry of latterly of the Army Reserve could easily be very suspect

Edited by Matlock1418
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Been thinking about this some more.

Could he perhaps have been in one of the newer types of Reserve ?

Thinking of Class W, Class T and Class P Reserves for those soldiers whose services were deemed to be more valuable to the country in civilian rather than military employment ??

The LLT has the following:

"Class W Reserve and its Territorial Force equivalent Class W(T)

Introduced in June 1916 by Army Order 203/16 under Section 12 of the recent Military Service Act. This new class of reserve was ‘for all those soldiers whose services are deemed to be more valuable to the country in civil rather than military employment’. Men in these classes were to receive no emoluments from army funds and were not to wear uniform. They were liable at any time to be recalled to the colours. From the time a man was transferred to Class W, until being recalled to the Colours, he was not subject to military discipline.

Class T Reserve

Introduced in October 1916 by Army Order 355 of 1916. There was no Territorial equivalent. Class T consisted of men in about 30 specific skilled trades (almost all industrial/munitions related) who would otherwise have been transferred to Class W. Terms and conditions were as for Class W.

Class P Reserve and Class P(T)

Introduced by the same Army Order 355/16. These classes consisted of men
– ‘whose services are deemed to be temporarily of more value to the country in civil life rather than in the Army’
– and who were not lower than medical grade C iii
– and as a result of having served in the Army or TF would, if discharged, be eligible for a pension on the grounds of disability or length of service.

Men in Classes P and P(T) were, for the purposes of pay, allowances, gratuity and pension, treated as if they been discharged on the date of their transfer to Class P or P(T). Other terms and conditions were as for Class W.

Authorisation was given in early December 1918 for all classes of the P and W Reserves (with the exception of conscientious objectors in the latter case) to be discharged forthwith, irrespective of their original terms of engagement."

The bit that was obviously niggling me and which now really caught my eye on LLT was From the time a man was transferred to Class W, until being recalled to the Colours, he was not subject to military discipline.  To me this would suggest that a man was not on military duty thus being treated as a civilian - any death in that period would not be CWGC commemorated unless a member of an approved Auxiliary Organisation and under specified conditions - see the Appendix A list from CWGC's eligibility criteria, p9 -  https://www.cwgc.org/media/0awj5vti/policy-eligibility-criteria-for-commemoration_march21.pdf 

:-) M

 

Edited by Matlock1418
typo
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“Any period in which he spent on the army reserve would not be paid a war gratuity so that would shift the dates somewhat - if he enlisted Sep 1914 then you're looking at 40 months and an entry to the reserve around Jan 1918, if he had usual situaion of continous service from the date of enlistment. As he had only one service number across his service this is the most likely option.”

Craigs opinion seems to fit. He doesn’t appear to have been discharged completely prior to or after his death. He has no SWB entry or disability pension card/claim. The probate statement “latterly Army Reserve” seems, to me, to be possible.

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48 minutes ago, Peterhastie said:

The probate statement “latterly Army Reserve” seems, to me, to be possible.

Yes seems it could be possible [as it also seems possible he was not], but in the absence of other evidence ... ???  Wishing you good fortune in finding more to help clarify, one way or the other I suppose - being better than uncertainty.

What you have, especially the Death Registration's occupation, is not very helpful in my opinion.  I think a "Tramway Car Motorman" is possibly related to mining [perhaps as one of the new Reserves??] but I think seemingly perhaps more likely for a passenger transport system in Glasgow - Either way seemingly to me to be treated as a civilian and not in an Auxiliary Organisation accepted by the CWGC.  The cause of death is likely to be problematic too for CWGC - seems far too likely to be a common non-service-related condition at that time.

Certainly not in any way wishing you to fail in your endeavours, but at the moment - just being cautionary regarding CWGC = ???

:-) M

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