Thomas Black possible DCM Highland Light Infantry from 1908 through the Great War

[Raymond Bell]

I am trying to find out if a Thomas Black serving with the HLI was awarded a DCM and if so any details concerning the action involved. I don't know much about him apart from the information attached from a local paper from 1930 

Born in Govan Glasgow 29 Oct 1883, in 1908 he enlisted with the HLI and according to the news notes  he served at Hamilton Barracks Lanarkshire then 1916 was sent out to India - in the news cutting it states he saw active service where he gained the coveted medal for distinguished conduct don't know if this refers as DCM - he passed away on 12 July 1930 and the HLI provided a detachment and a piper to his final rest place in Jane field Cemetery also known as Eastern Necropolis in Glasgow

I tried Ancestry and found 7-8 Thomas Blacks who served with the HLI - found a few family trees that listed him hoping to try get a regimental number or battalion - Can anyone say which battalion were in India - I believe 1st Bn were out there prior to 1914? 

I don't have a regimental number or even a battalion if anyone could help please

Raymond Bell

[MaureenE]

The Highland Light Infantry (City of Glasgow Regiment) including deployments: 1st Battalion, 2nd Battalion Regiments.org, an archived site.

I can't see where he would have seen active service in India during WW1. The First Battalion appears to have been in Mesopotamia. Possibly Black may have been drafted to Mesopotamia via India?

The 2nd Battalion was in India from 1923. If he saw active service during this period, he should have been entitle to a medal, The Medal Rolls which  are on Ancestry  include this period.

Maureen 

[Raymond Bell]

Thank you Maureen - I'll look into thanks - your up late - Thanks again

 

[Ivor Anderson]

Walker's book on WW1 recipients of the DCM lists no Thomas Black from the HLI. It only lists a Robert Black 10755, 1st Bn. HLI (LG 1-4-1915).

(A CSM Thomas Black, 9867 6th KOSB won a DCM in LG 22-09-1916). He was KIA 11 Jan 1917.

There is a chance that your Thomas won a DCM in India after WW1?   

No Thomas Black from the HLI won a MM in WW1 either.

Could it have been a 'Long Service & Good Conduct Medal' he got if he served 22 years?

 

Edited 19 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Thomas Blacks with the HLI in WW1. Some of these eliminate themselves (if the newspaper account is correct!).

1) 3176 with 15th Bn. went to France 23-11-1915. Demob 31-03-1919.

2) 4891/331971 Pte 9th Bn. - War & Victory Medal - pension card on WFA

3) 16170 with 17th Bn. went to France 22-11-1915. Demob 23-05-1919

4) 19650 with 11th, 17th & 1st Bn. went to France 13-05-1915. Born Bothwell 1892. Discharged 11-04-1919

5) 26455 - 1st Bn. (war medal only) - served with 2nd Som. LI (25593) & MGC too.

6) 11368 'T. Black' went to France 08-09-1914

7) 8291 'T. A. Black' went to France 08-09-1914. Discharged 14-10-1915.

8) 2683 'T. L. Black' 9th Bn. - To France 05-11-1914. Comm 2nd Lt. RE.

Edited 19 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Is this his family tree on Ancestry? https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/110803350/person/122097217330/story?_phsrc=AHE15339&_phstart=successSource

If so, he had a daughter (Thomasina) born in Glasgow on 27th December 1916, so he was at home around March 1916.

Edited 19 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[RedCoat]

2 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

If so, he had a daughter (Thomasina) born in Glasgow on 27th December 1916, so he was at home around March 1916.

Maybe he wasn't 

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, MaureenE said:

The Highland Light Infantry (City of Glasgow Regiment) including deployments: 1st Battalion, 2nd Battalion Regiments.org, an archived site.

I can't see where he would have seen active service in India during WW1. The First Battalion appears to have been in Mesopotamia. Possibly Black may have been drafted to Mesopotamia via India?

The 2nd Battalion was in India from 1923. If he saw active service during this period, he should have been entitle to a medal, The Medal Rolls which  are on Ancestry  include this period.

Maureen 

I agree with Maureen and can find no HLI unit in India during WW1.  The 1st Battalion were based in India on the outbreak of war and as part of the Sirhind Brigade in 1914, went first to Egypt and then Mesopotamia via Marseilles, where they rejoined the 3rd (Lahore) Division from which they’d been temporarily separated.  The battalion transferred to 17th (Indian) Division in 1917 and then remained with it until the end of the war.  It might be that the reference to India in the newspaper article is connected with that formation’s Indian designation.  Failing that I can only assume he was posted to another regiment entirely and that seems less likely, although not impossible.

Edited 19 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ivor Anderson]

5 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

5) 26455 - 1st Bn. (war medal only) - served with 2nd Som. LI (25593) & MGC too.

 

The 2nd Somerset Light infantry were in India in WW1. 2nd Battalion were in India on outbreak of war, and remained in the country (part of the 4th (Quetta) Division 1914–1917, 1st (Peshawar) Division 1917–1918). Ancestry images below - long shot, but most likely on above list of options?

[charlie962]

I have another potential candidate:

Thomas Black of the Machine Gun Corps, 113339, won the Military Medal in Mesopotamia

image courtesy FindmyPast:

He has several Pension cards, under 113339 and 11339.  His address is 18 John Street Lane Glasgow. Married, date of birth-not given. He was suffering from Malaria.

One of the cards also notes he had previous service with DLI and with HLI.

His MIC and medal roll show BWM, VM and IGSM (Afghanistan NWF 1919). They give DLI number as 24163

image courtesy Ancestry:

Disembodied 24/12/1919

 

I suggest that this all fits very well with the narrative in the OP. I have not traced his HLI number.

Charlie

 

 

Edited 19 September , 2021 by charlie962

[Ivor Anderson]

Well done Charlie. His daughter Thomasina was born at 18 John Street Lane, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland on 27 Dec. 1916. See family tree link above.

No HLI no. on his MIC (Ancestry). it may have been pre/post WW1 service?

Edited 19 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[charlie962]

Great closing of the circle, Ivor, with that birth.

An HLI man for most of his service if not the final 'active' part. Good to see the original write-up was fully justified.

Charlie

 

Edited 19 September , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

His Afghan NWF 1919 casp is cleverly indexed by Ancestry as with the MGC at WATERLOO!!

The Roll itself confirms he was still 288 Coy MGC at the time.

Edited 19 September , 2021 by charlie962

[Ivor Anderson]

A time traveller too! 

MM listing in LG 20th August 1919 confirms that he was from Glasgow: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31512/supplement/10578

A late WW1 MM award for MESOPOTAMIA. So, his service medal (1924) had an 'Afghanistan, NW Frontier 1919' clasp. Ironic given recent events!

Edited 19 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[charlie962]

The only War Diary for 288 MGC I can find  is 1919 and has not been digitised (yet). for ref it is here

Edited 19 September , 2021 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent work gentlemen.  I'm sure that the OP (Raymond Bell) will be thrilled.

[Raymond Bell]

I was just replying to thank everyone for helping out - this is an amazing forum - every time I put a request for help in - someone always bounces back with an answer - when I initially  posted it was early hours in the morning and within an hour posting the first comment came in from Maureen - then this morning just a continual flow of information being sent from Ivor - Redcoat - Frogsmile - I was just making up my reply with another couple of questions when Charlie jumps in and hits the nail on the head - confirmed by Ivor with the MIC and the John Street Lane address - I had seen the family tree but centralising on the HLI link - what I did see on the tree was a menu for a Victory Dinner by the 17th HLI in Glasgow in 1919 (attached) and that set me looking at the 2 MICs that mentioned service with the 17th Battalion being T Black 16170 and the other 19560

So looking at this he had been awarded the IGSM - War Medal - Victory Medal and the MM? Would he not have received either 14 or 14/15 Star ?? unless of course he left and re-joined?? if they were allowed to???

I goggled 113339 T Black and it appears that his IGSM medal had been up for sale on ebay (attached) I had to google what IGSM meant  ***

I don't collect medals or other items but I like collecting stories on soldiers - I am on the HLI facebook page and a lady had been asking about her relative and I knew if I could not find him I would come to the experts (YOU) - it is a great forum 100% 

As Frogsmile has just posted "I am over thrilled with your input - Thank you all - you are STARS

Raymond

 

 

 

[Ivor Anderson]

Someone got a nice medal (listing images):

Edited 19 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[david murdoch]

He also shows up wounded in the weekly casualty lists Tuesday 10 December 1918.

[Raymond Bell]

Wow - As I said I had googled his details and saw the medal was advertised on Ebay but when I went on to see it said it had been sold within the last month because I was hoping to try and put the photo up - and Wow again the forum comes up trumps again - Thank you Ivor wonder what happened to his other medals??

Hi David Thanks for the info he had been wounded - where was that taken from I see the date you mention is 10th December 1918 this is after the armistice - of course there are discussions on when the war ended but not getting into that 

Anyway again GWF Rules - Thank you

Raymond

 

[Ivor Anderson]

The IGSM listing (sold 1-8-2021) had photos from a publication called the 'Machine Gunner 1914-18' by C. E. Crutchley.

Thomas Black's MM appears to have been won in IRAQ with 257/288 MGC (see MM Index Card), along with 113337 Pte. Charles Henry Bond and 113348 Pte. Harold Stanbury. They went at night under heavy Turkish fire along with Lt. Edward John Cheesman (who won an MC) and brought 20 mules with much needed food and ammunition back to their unit. Note the 1st HLI was present! Listing photos:

Edited 20 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[charlie962]

17 hours ago, Raymond Bell said:

Would he not have received either 14 or 14/15 Star ?

No, because although still in HLI he did not serve in a theatre of War with them.

[Raymond Bell]

Charlie - Ivor again amazing thank you very much for the information - Once again to all the members who added the information great work - Thank you

Raymond

[Guest]

Can I just say thank you all so much for your help in finding the information on my Great Grandfather Thomas Black, you have no idea just how much I appreciate your help. I have since purchased a copy of the book that has his name in.  All I need now is a photograph of him so can only pray that someone somewhere may read these messages and find one. Thank you all so much again for your help. 
Regards

Ann (Belinda Conniss Pseudonym Name).

x

[Raymond Bell]

Thanks Belinda for putting your thanks to the people on the forum -  They deserve the praise - always found them really helpful - Thank you for helping Belinda