ID help please

[NCADMAN]

This is my grandfather (who I never knew), Arthur Harry Cadman born 1893 in Sheffield. The pictures have only just surfaced and nobody in the family knows anything about his military career, least of all my dad (dementia unfortunately).

Can anyone help ID regiment etc? Thank you.

 

[58 Div Mule]

Shoulder title appears to be a strung bugle horn above Yorkshire. Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (KOYLI)? I’m no expert!

58 DM.

[Michelle Young]

Yes it’s definitely Light Infantry. And I think I can make out Yorkshire on the shoulder titles. 

[TullochArd]

King's Own Yorkshire LI.  The only Yorkshire LI Arthur Cadman I can find is a 12/568 Arthur Vernon Cadman. This man seems to have lived in Normanton, West Yorkshire for most of his post war life. If this is him the 12th (Service) Battalion was a Miners/Pioneer Battalion recruited from West Yorkshire and served in Egypt and then F&B but it seems unikely if Harry is a definate name.  Any other clues eg parents?

[NCADMAN]

thank you

He was referred to as Arthur H, or Arthur Harry on the 1901 and 1911 census records. His parents were Albert and Edith. He was probably born 1894 according to those records.  Of course, being from Sheffield, he was in the cutlery trade (scissors).

[NCADMAN]

here is a closer view of the shoulder. I can make out yorkshire now! Not sure I can make out the bugle !

[NCADMAN]

Sorry to go on.   Does the white shoulder cord in the first picture mean anything?

Thank you

[Michelle Young]

It’s a lanyard to hold a clasp knife. 

[Tawhiri]

There is a family tree on Ancestry for Arthur Vernon Cadman, which claims he was born in Shropshire on 17 December 1890 to James Henry Cadman and Mary Ann Brown. He then married Sarah Elizabeth Willshaw in 1914 in Wakefield, Yorkshire, and in the 1939 England and Wales Register he can be found living at 8 East Street, Normanton, Yorkshire (West Riding) with Sarah and five children, one of who's records still remains closed. In this case he gives his birth date as 28 February 1891, and his occupation is colliery worker, which would seem to fit with TullochArd's comments about the 12 Battalion being a miners/pioneers battalion. In the 1911 England census he can be found living in Altofts, Yorkshire (West Riding) with his uncle and aunt, and working as a miner. Sarah can also be found living in Altofts in the 1911 England census, so at the moment he is not looking like a strong candidate to be the soldier in the photograph. 

Edited to add that I think the Ancestry family tree has picked up the wrong Arthur Cadman when it comes to his date of birth, as it seems to be based on the christening record of an Arthur Cadman born to Thomas and Emma Cadman in Shropshire in late 1890. They have the right parents though, as this is Arthur Vernon Cadman's birth registration from the GRO Indexes:

CADMAN, ARTHUR  VERNON  Mother's maiden name: BROWN  

GRO Reference: 1890  J Quarter in WELLINGTON SALOP UNION  Volume 06A  Page 735

I'd suggest that if Arthur's birth year in the 1939 England and Wales Register was 1890, rather than the 1891 he has stated, then a late February birth would be consistent with a late registration early in the second quarter of 1890.

Edited 14 September , 2021 by Tawhiri

[PRC]

2 hours ago, NCADMAN said:

His parents were Albert and Edith. He was probably born 1894 according to those records.

Hl @NCADMAN and a belated welcome to the forum.

On the 1911 Census of England and Wales Albert and Edith state they have been married 19 years. Assuming they were married in England & Wales, (BIG assumption!), the only likely match for a marriage in the civil records is that of an Albert Cadman to an Edith Westnedge recorded in the Sheffield District in the July to September quarter, (Q3) of 1891.

The birth of an Arthur Harry Cadman, mothers' maiden name Westnedge, was registered with the civil authorities in the Ecclesall Bierlow District of Yorkshire in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1893. The parts of Sheffield that fell within that registration district can be seen here https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/ecclesall bierlow.html

On the 1939 Register he looks to be living at 57 Annesley Road, Sheffield, but gives his date of birth as the 1st November 1892.

Meanwhile there is an Arthur Vernon Cadman whose birth was registered with the civil authorities in the Wellington District of Shropshire in Q2 1890. By 1901 the family had moved to Lancashire and in 1911 he was living with his in-laws ar Birkdale, Lancashire, having been married under a year. An Arthur V. Cadman was recorded as having died, aged 77, in the Lower Agbrigg District of Yorkshire in Q3 1967. As with all things genelogical, without a great deal more digging then it could all be a co-incidence, but my gut feeling is that the Arthur Vernon Cadman for whom there is a Medal Index Card and associated Service Medal Rolls, is a completely different individual. And for completeness, FMP has a hospital discharge record for him on the 2nd July 1917 when he was recorded as aged 26 and serving with the 12th Battalion, KOYLI. His condition was Myalgia, so unfortunately he won't turn up in the Casualty Lists, which covers combats wounds, accidental and combat deaths only.

Hopefully you are already aware that the majority of other ranks records were lost when German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they were being stored in WW2. The Medal related documentation is often all that survives. The Medal Index Cards, (MiCs) were simply a way for the clerks in the records office to keep track of the related service rolls and correspondence. But that has limitations because of the reasons for which the cards were raised. They covered:-

 - The issue of service medals for those who had seen service overseas
- The issue of gallantry medals and mentioned in dispatches emblems - so likely to only be those individuals who had served overseas
- The issue of the silver war badge for those who were honourably discharged before the end of the conflict, regardless of where they served.
- The issue of long service related medals - so likely to be individuals who were serving before the war began and \ or who stayed in the Armed Forces post-war

So a significant number of men, volunteers and conscripts, were home service only, and saw out their time, receiving no medals.
And the MiCs and Rolls documentation for service medals only covers units served with overseas, and sometimes even these are poorly documented in the service medal documentation.

So while I agree your photographs appear to be of a man in the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, and from his birth date Arthur would have been able to enlist at any point from the outbreak of the war onwards, it doesn't mean he served overseas with them, or that he even went overseas.

Looking for other ways to establish something about his army career, I then tried looking for a marriage. A marrage certificate under Grooms occupation might give more details about rank and which unit he was serving with. But can I assume he was the Arthur H. Cadman who married a Fanny Brown in the Eccleshall Bierlow District in Q2 1926? And that of course rules out children born while he might have been serving.

A quick search of the local newspapers available on FindMyPast failed to bring up any mention.

Another possibility is that Absent Voters List. There is more here on our parent site, the Long, Long Trail, on how these can help. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Unfortunately only a few pages are believed to have survived for Sheffield for 1918 and none for 1919.

So clutching at straws at the moment to come up with some positives The head and shoulders shot appears to be a formal studio picture. On the full picture or on the back are there details of the photographers studio at all? From that it might be possible to see if any battalions of the KOYLI were stationed nearby and when.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 14 September , 2021 by PRC
Typos

[NCADMAN]

Thanks for your welcome and thanks for all that info. Absolutely amazing. 

Arthur Harry was indeed married to Fanny Brown (I did know her). My dad was born in 1928 and did indeed live at 57 Annesley Rd. Arthur died in 1942 aged 49 (so birth year 1892 seems good).

I don't have the photo at present- it is somewhere back at my parents house. I never thought to look at the back!

Thank you again for all your help.  It looks like KOYLI is as far as I can get at present!

Neil 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, NCADMAN said:

here is a closer view of the shoulder. I can make out yorkshire now! Not sure I can make out the bugle !

Welcome to the forum Neil.  This is how the shoulder title looked in close up.

Edited 14 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

Is there anything more to the photos posted, anything on reverse or photographers mark? I can’t find anything for his brother Maurice either.

I’ve just had a look through the names extracted from all the known Sheffield memorials and rolls of honour. Only two possible candidates.

A Cadman appears on the St Thomas (Crookes) Roll of Honour.

H Cadman appears on the St Mary’s (Bramhall Lane) Roll of Honour.

Both men are known to have served and returned but alas no other details. Was Arthur ever know as Harry? Bramhall Lane is a stones throw from Priestley Street and his known address on the 1911 Census.

I realise this adds nothing but at least another it’s another avenue searched.

 

[NCADMAN]

Thanks all

I can see the shoulder title now!

I will look at the photos again on Friday.

Apparently Maurice only had one hand. We don't know how or when it happened. Maybe he never served?

There are various Cadmans with the initials A or H but i don't know if they are these!

[NCADMAN]

It turns out there is no information at all on the back of the photos. 

Now, apparently, my dad and mum remember that they had a photo of Arthur Harry with a group of other soldiers on a street in France where he apparently served at some time. They even went to France to try and find the street but can't remember where it was or where the photo is! They are going to try to find it- not holding my breath though!

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, NCADMAN said:

It turns out there is no information at all on the back of the photos. 

Now, apparently, my dad and mum remember that they had a photo of Arthur Harry with a group of other soldiers on a street in France where he apparently served at some time. They even went to France to try and find the street but can't remember where it was or where the photo is! They are going to try to find it- not holding my breath though!

If there’s confidence that he was photographed in France then there should be a medal index card for him as mentioned earlier in the thread.  Assuming he served under his own name and that it’s not one of the MICs occasionally lost.  Some men served using their middle name if they had one.

[PRC]

There are 15 MiC's for an Arthur Cadman in the National Archive, of which 5 can be eliminated as their second initial isn't H.
There are two MiC's for an A. Cadman, but in both cases they have a second initial, (which isn't H) and so can be eliminated.
There are 11 MiC's for a Harry Cadman, of which 1 can be eliminated on grounds of their second initial.
There is only 1 MiC for an H. Cadman, but as their unit is shown as the Catholic Women League I think it can be discounted.

So assuming he served with surname Cadman and assuming the shot in France wasn't post-war, that just leaves 20 possibles to wade through

Cheers,
Peter